December 2009 Archives

Sanford on Dialogue in the Phaedrus

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As a way to continue the discussion we started on this blog during the Fall 2009 semester, I will be posting copies of some of the final papers students wrote that I found particularly compelling.  I have asked for permission to publish them here and those that are posted appear because of the generosity of the student authors.

The first paper I would like to highlight was written by Jordan Sanford.  It is entitled Dialogue in the Phaedrus - A Gesture Towards Self-Cultivation

In this paper, Jordan expands our understanding of Platonic dialogue by arguing that the Phaedrus draws our attention to the details of natural things in order to suggest that the human relation to nature is itself dialogical.


Digital Dialogue 23: Bernasconi on Race

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Robert Bernasconi, Edwin Erle Sparks Professor of Philosophy, joins me for episode 23 of the Digital Dialogue to discuss his inaugural lecture at Penn State entitled "Nature, Culture, Race: A Phenomenological Perspective on Critical Philosophy of Race."

In the episode we touch on issues related to the critical philosophy of race, phenomenology, the Philosophy Department at Penn State and the recent publication of Emmanuel Faye's book on Heidegger.

Digital Dialogue 23 with Robert Bernasconi: Philosophy and Race

Related Links
Articles related to Bernasconi's inaugural lecture:
Recent articles in popular press related to Faye's book, Heidegger: The Introduction of Nazism into Philosophy in Light of the Unpublished Seminars of 1933-1935.
Scholarly Texts on Heidegger by Christopher Long:
Scholarly Books on Heidegger by Robert Bernasconi:

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Rhetoric, Politics, and the Good Life

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In their quest to discover exactly what rhetoric is, Socrates compares rhetoric with cookery, stating that they both pursue the same ends (Gorgias 462e). Socrates places rhetoric well below the 'political art' in the hierarchy of human activities. Rhetoric, cookery and cosmetics are all activities that use experience as their paradigm. Specifically, for Socrates, rhetoric concerns itself with the experience of grace and pleasure (462cd). It takes immediate pleasure and gratification as the highest good and thus does not contemplate the actual good life. The good life, which, as he intimates in the Protagoras, is the harmony between the soul and the life as a whole, necessitates contemplation that reaches beyond the pleasures and experiences of the here and now (P&M 313a). The good life requires patience, diligence, and responsibility that has not only listened to itself but to others as well. Socrates develops, then, a dichotomy between rhetoric and philosophy that implies that philosophy is neither governed, nor involved in experience. Hence, if one follows this to its limit, the 'true political art' learns nothing from experience; for the experience of pleasure and pain should not dictate the pursuit of the good.

This throws the question of the good life into a strange light, and I question whether it is possible to conceive of the good life without reference to experience either of pleasure or of pain. I think, at this point, Socrates is quick to draw strict lines between rhetoric and the 'political art.' Furthermore, I believe that Socrates actually foreshadows what may be a certain softening to the skill of rhetoric when he indicates that "whether the rhetoric that Gorgias pursues is this, I do not know," (Gorgias 463a). For now, he leaves the question of a better type of rhetoric open as a possibility, a rhetoric that may have higher pursuits in mind. Thus, I do agree with Nicolas in that Socrates may be open to a certain appropriation of rhetoric within philosophy. Indeed, it seems impossible for philosophy to leave some understanding of pleasure behind.

This does not mean, however, that Socrates paints rhetoric in an appealing light. Rhetoric is a skill, but it is not an art. It "is skilled at guessing, courageous, and terribly cleaver by nature at associating with human beings;" it is "not an art but experience and routine" (463b). Rhetoric's object is human beings, studying them in order to control them, in order to know their desires and reciprocate those desires. At worst and on its own, it attempts little at understanding human beings by listening and understanding, but structures a routine response and treatment of them. Rhetoric is a self enclosed skilled; its goal is to produce pleasure and its response is to give pleasure. In other words, its results will always attempt to correlate directly with what it thinks the other's desires are. This, at least, is my understanding of Socrates' ascription of the term flattery to rhetoric. It should be noted, however, that he, again, refuses to condemn and reduce rhetoric completely to flattery (466a).

Socrates' claim that rhetoric "is a phantom of a part of politics," also sheds light on his understanding of the relationship between rhetoric and the true political art. He seems to ascribe a certain mimesis to rhetoric, but not a mimesis that learns and expands, nor one that simply betrays itself by becoming another; indeed, posing is its occupation. Rhetoric is a deceitful imposter. Like flattery, "it pretends to be... and gives no heed to the best but hunts after folly with what is ever most pleasant, and deceives, so as to seem to be worth very much," (464d). Rhetoric can be like a parasite on the possibilities of the 'political art.' Rather than genuinely debating and "giving a reasoned account," of what it claims to tend to or its own project, rhetoric promotes blindness to both itself and the very question of the good - its only concern being the search for pleasure.

Yet, it seems implausible that Socrates would deny that the pleasurable and the good could coincide. It seems the very question of turning oneself toward the good life must also necessitate a cultivated desire for the good life, a desire that views the good life as agreeable and is always striving to attain that pleasure. Moreover, experience and art cannot be so easily dichotomized, especially if part of the art of philosophy is to "give a reasoned account," one must assume that experience and its relation to pleasure has its place in this discussion. Basically, Socrates' speech brings to light the dangers of rhetoric, but at this point, in his analogies with cookery and cosmetics, he does not give rhetoric a fair discussion. Not to mention, as a side note, his speech is full of rhetoric, insisting that rhetoric is shameful, and flattering Polus repeatedly(463c-467c).

In closing I would like to remind how at the beginning of our semester, when discussing the opening pages of the Protagoras, Professor Long noted the playfulness of the exchange between friends, and Socrates' 'defense' of his erotic love for Alcibiades. If I remember correctly, Professor Long suggested that, according to the Greek conceptions of love and knowledge, the pursuit of wisdom begins with erotic love. It seems to me that this love must have some connection to the experience of pleasure. And, while this is not the highest form of love, it does have its place in the pursuit of wisdom. It recognizes at bottom that human beings are embodied and must always remain connected to the earthly body in their pursuit of the realm of the good. To dichotomize them completely would ignore what sparked the quest in the first place. Thus, I do not believe that Socrates can completely dismiss rhetoric, even though he dismisses rhetoricians. What he condemns, in fact, is the lack of movement beyond the pursuit of pleasure alone. Any search must necessarily combine itself with new experiences and sidestep its own project, and in that, it moves beyond its original paradigm to a new more enriched one. Socrates (and perhaps Plato) wants to remind, however, that the question concerning the good life should always be the projected goal. In that way, philosophy, as an attempt to give a rational account of its project and its objects of discourse - its rationale fundamentally grounded in the contemplation of the good life - can combine with disciplines such as rhetoric to enrich both of their projects. As a phantom, or image of true politics, then, rhetoric, at worst and on its own, is a degenerated form of the true political art. It is, however, not necessarily extricable from the practice of politics, and is an important step in the process of conceptualizing the good life.

Digital Dialogue 22: Transformative Dialogue

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A group of students from my Philosophy 200, Ancient Greek Philosophy, course join me for episode 22 of the Digital Dialogue.

Drew Bullard, Jordan Sanford, Cody Yashinsky, Anthony Zirpoli, Tony Arnold, Pam Doran and Joni Noggle discuss some of the themes that have emerged over the course of this semester as we investigated the nature of Socratic Politics by reading four Platonic dialogues: Protagoras, Gorgias, Phaedrus and Symposium.

Digital Dialogue 22 with Students from PHIL200: Transformative Dialogue

This episode of the digital dialogue is particularly important to me because it grew organically out of the work the students and I did together this semester. It was initiated by Cody Yashinsky who thought it would be nice to do a semester round-up podcast as way to highlight a number of themes that have emerged on the blog and in the course of our weekly round-up podcasts.

What we have done together this semester in the classroom, on the blog and through podcast is a testimony to the transformative power of digital dialogue.

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Charioteer

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Forgive me while I bring us back to the charioteer allegory, but my paper is centered around it... As I analyze the horses and the charioteer, it becomes apparent to me that the desirable characteristics of a horse drawing the chariot would be obedience. But if obedience is all that is desired of the pulling horses, that assumes that the charioteers are all perfect in intention and orientation to the Good. If there are variations amongst horses, can't there also be variations among charioteers? Or are the characteristics of good horses, bad horses, and most importantly, charioteers, static? If they are strictly defined in such an unchanging way, that seems to contradict the foundational ever-changing aspect of the soul itself.

Thoughts?

What have we learned?

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In the Phaedrus, Socrates offers us a quote that he uses to define himself:
"Now, I am a prophet, not a very serious one, but, like people who are barely literate, good enough for my own purposes..." (Phaedrus, 242c).

I bring this quote up because I find it interesting and fitting for the end of this class.  For 15 weeks, 30 classes, we came together and discussed what we thought of certain philosophical dialogues, religious posts that drew over 70 comments, scenarios in life, and anything else that came to mind.  In a certain way, we were philosophers for a semester - philosophers who were good enough for our own purposes. 

What I wish to ask is something that may seem difficult because of its vagueness, but if thought about for a short amount of time, should be capable of drawing an answer: What have we learned from this class?  What will we take from it into our future aspirations?

Certainly, we all have different goals in life and many of us aren't going to sit down and read any of Plato's books again, but that is irrelevant. Are we students who talked about what is Good just because we had to, or are we actually interested in pursuing a similar lifestyle?  Are we a community who banded together when a problem arose because Dr. Long would be happy, or did we truly believe what we were saying?

Good luck with all your future ambitions... 

Honing the Metaphor

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When we started the semester talking about the Good we used the imagery of the Swan. The Swan, representing the Good is something we could watch, but we could never actually 'be.' It is something to be admired, to strive after, but even if we were able to 'catch' it, we could never truly be it.

We then moved to the metaphor of 'the path' that had 'signs' along the way that kept us aware of our actions. We chose which direction we went down, hopefully paying attention to the 'signs' that represented the various obstacles/otherwise in our lives. The path is something that never ends but we continually trek down as we make various decisions.

This next one isn't one we necessarily went over in class but I think it's something that fits in this - we are as trees that bare fruit. Our actions are these fruit, and as we cultivate various tendencies within ourselves, these fruit fall and bare more plants that further whatever tendencies lie within. As we do a similar thing more often it becomes easier to do it. It's not impossible to change, but the influence of the 'garden' is harder to resist the more tendencies you've built up.

So, finally, I'd like to put another one up here and see what you all think about it. Shooting an arrow. The archer is ourselves, the arrow our actions, and the target the kind of effect they cause in the world, with the center representing the Good. In the same sense as the Swan we could never truly 'be' the Good, we could only ever aim for it. Our experiences in the past give us a better aim to target the good and try to make actions that are closer to it, should we orient them to ourselves in the right way. But if we are lazy and not striving, we could miss the target entirely!

I just think it's interesting to bring the metaphor full circle to see how we respond to it after we have had our fifteen weeks together.

Thanks Prof. Long

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As a way of ending the semester of classes, if not necessarily ending involvement in the blog. I'd like to say thanks to Prof. Long. The communal aspect of this class was something incredibly unique. In very few other classes do I even know four other people's names. In this class I knew almost everyone's name and the way they approached philosophy. It's unfortunate that very few other professors are willing to engage with students on familiar territory (technology). Also, it's good to know that within academic philosophy there are at least a few people trying to take part in edifying dialogue instead of agonistic ego stroking.

I appreciate the effort you took to allow us to co-create the content and flow of the course via the blog. So for whatever it's worth, thanks.

Final Weekly Round-up

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Ok, folks, here is the last episode of the Weekly Round-Up Podcast starring Anna, Pam, and Cody. Enjoy!
Podcast Project.mp3

Steeped in Shadows

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The two videos we viewed in class today got me thinking about how exactly we should go about pursuing the concept and application of justice. On the one hand, the final product of Professor Long's collaboration seems to suggest that this pursuit is of the utmost importance, and that it should truly be our chief pursuit throughout our lives. After all, if we are not constantly sharpening and refining our concept of what is just and how justice should be applied it is very possible we could stray from the path of the good. On the other hand, the raw video suggests a lightheartedness and whimsical aspect to the process that was lost in the process of making the final video. Viewing the actual dialogue to which both videos refer, it seems that Socrates recognizes the later as essential for discovery and advancement in this regard. Socrates implies that without an ability to laugh at one's self and take things as they come one can hardly hope to truly find enlightenment and a proper view of the good.

So, I was wondering which path gives the greatest chance for one to succeed in their pursuit of justice and orientation to the good. Is it necessary to remain vigilant and actively pursue the discovery and affirmation of these notion's throughout one's life, or is a better approach to enjoy one's life and allow the truth or truths to reveal themselves, or is the answer somewhere in between? Thoughts?

Search for Justice

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Back in July, during my time as a Faculty Fellow at Teaching and Learning with Technology, my team and I discussed ways to expose my research into the nature of Socratic politics to a wider and more diverse audience.  We discussed and developed the idea that we would produce a video to this end.  After months of discussions and preparations, which turned out to be a most interesting process of collaboration - about which I will blog in the days to come, I am very proud to present that video here.

Before you watch it however, let me provide a bit of background. The words in the video come from a passage in Plato's Republic (432b-432e), spoken mostly by Socrates. He is talking to a group of young men, most of whom are aspiring politicians, and one of whom is Plato's brother, Glaucon. After a long and famous discussion of an imagined city, Socrates asks those gathered to look in the city for courage, wisdom, moderation and, finally, justice.

The text of the video is taken from the passage in which Socrates encourages Glaucon to search for justice only to realize that perhaps justice has been appearing between them as they sought to articulate the meaning of justice together.

The importance of the passage lies in this idea, central to Socratic politics: the attempt to articulate the meaning and nature of justice is the very process by which justice is woven into human relations.

I have written about the importance of this passage in an article published in the journal Polis entitled "Socrates and the Politics of Music: Preludes of the Republic," Polis 24, no. 1 (2007). An abstract of "The Politics of Music" article and a link to the full text is available here.


Search for Justice from TLT at Penn State on Vimeo.

The Provocation

  • How to you seek justice?
  • Where do you find justice?

Orienting Questions

  • Who are the figures that appear in the video?
  • How does "Justice" appear in the video?
  • How does Socrates' understanding of the search for justice change in the course of the video?
  • What metaphors does Socrates use to describe the search for justice?
  • What is the overall "feel" of the video?  How is this feel conveyed?
A Word of Thanks
Obviously, this video was a collaborative effort and I want to express my thanks here to Zach Zidic, who did the flash animation for the video.  Chris Stubbs did a great job as the voice of Socrates. Others who were critical to the process were:  Allan Gyorke, Matt Meyer, Ryan Wetzel, and Pat Besong.

Thank you all for your work with me on this project.

Diagnosing Socrates

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In Alcibiades' speech on Love for Socrates in The Symposium, he begins to mention the amazing feats Socrates has accomplished. The feats include:

1. Immense hunger endurance (219e-220b)

2. Endurance from Cold, especially on the Feet (220a-220c)

3. Instances of Prolonged Inward Thought (220c-220e)

4. Fearless Bravery (220d-221c)

If we add other occurrences from our prior readings about Socrates, these other traits emerge:

5. He hears voices in his head (his daemon).

6. He is often forgetful (remember his conversation with Protagorus).

7. He feels "possessed" at times from divine spirits (His speech in The Phaedrus)

It occurred to me that all of Socrates' behaviors represent certain medical conditions. So I went to WebMD and ran the following symptoms through the WebMD Symptom Checker:

1. Blackouts

2. Easily Distracted

3. Numbness or tingling

4. Forgetfulness

5. Hearing voices

6. Feeling detached from reality

7. Memory Problems

8. Unusual Behavior

The top conditions that showed up were as follows:

1. Peripheral Neuropathy - This is an umbrella term that refers to damage to the peripheral nervous system. This consists of all the motor and sensory nerves that connect the brain to the spinal cord. This may account for Socrates' amazing endurance abilities in eating, drinking, and coldness.

2. Schizophrenia - People who have schizophrenia hear and sometimes see things that are not there (hallucination) and believe some things that are not true (delusional). Socrates probably has the Catatonic type which could make the person immobile or a catatonic stupor. Another symptom is waxy flexibility, which leads to a decreased response to stimuli and a tendency to remain in an immobile posture.

3. Epilepsy - Involves portions of the brain that controls emotions and memories. The Temporal Lobe of the brain seizes causing emotional or thought disturbances and hallucinations involving sounds, smells or tastes. It can also lead to memory loss and inattentive staring.

This is neither philosophical nor an attempt to discredit Socrates. I realize this is completely off-topic, but it's just something fun to consider during the last week of classes. It's just interesting that in the age we are in Socrates probably would've been diagnosed with one of the above diseases and would either be in a mental hospital or highly medicated. Many people ask why there isn't a philosopher today as widely well known and respected as Socrates. I think it's because any sort of eccentricity is now a diagnosed medical disease. Could a Socrates exist in today's world?

Memorization

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While we were doing the last digital dialogue, we discussed the role of the written word and memorization. Is memorization a kind of true learning? Or is it merely internalization with no active participation? We debated this on many different planes, but Pam's comment about actors started me thinking. To recap, Pam was talking about how actors have to just memorize a bunch of lines. But their internalization and giving a character and a context for those words is what makes an actor great.

Personally, I made a connection to music. Forgive me if you think it's a stretch, but bear with me. I am in an a capella group. And currently, I have the solo for Mariah Carey's "All I Want For Christmas is You". I have been struggling with memorizing the words. But as I do so, it's more than just knowing the order of the words or where certain rhymes are. It's more than practicing where I'm going to put embellishments on. Memorizing the song is a process of internalizing and understanding the idea, the essence of the song so that you can communicate it to an audience. In any kind of performance, it's easy to memorize what you're supposed to do. Sing at this time, move during this line. But the process enables you to imprint the idea within yourself, beyond strict memorization. Memorization provides one with a foundation to build off of. It allows for creation and elaboration. So when all the words and notes fall into place, I'm not just giving a voice to the marks on a page, but I'm expressing myself and telling a story.

To Assume...

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So our recent bit of cyber-drama has gotten me thinking.  Earlier in the year we had questions about whether it was valid to assume that the Good existed when discussing orientation toward the Good.  Now our dissident has provoked me to question our assumption of philosophical form.  Are we chauvinists in terms of Socratic dialogue?  Reflecting on the semester has our devotion to an ostensible functionality of civil discourse actually lead to any meaningful insight?  Have our theses and antitheses actually resulted in advancing our knowledge, did we find legitimate syntheses?  We've taken for granted that everyone's voice deserves to be heard, but is that true?  I believe this is a common criticism of democracy.  Is everyone's voice actually equally worth while?

More than wanting to reiterate the debate that has already taken place I want to put this idea in the context of Platonic philosophy.  It is my understanding that access to the Platonic Forms, according to Plato, is supposed to take place on a purely intellectual level.  True knowledge of how things really are apparently is grasped solely in the soul.  This would seem to encourage a more meditative, seclusive approach to philosophy.  Why the dialogue?  In his Allegory of the Cave the man who discovers true knowledge does it alone, and when he attempts to convey his knowledge of reality he is ridiculed and punished for it.  Socrates himself rarely learns anything; in fact he is the man that admitted that he doesn't truly know anything.  He also seems fully aware that those he engages won't end up teaching him anything.  Does he actually feel that everyone's opinion is worth hearing?

I'll end with this, I feel it conveys what I am trying to get at in terms of access to the Forms:

"For thought is a bird of space, that in a cage of words many indeed unfold its wings but cannot fly."
-Khalil Gibran

Digital Dialogue 21: Rhetoric and Philosophy

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Axelle Karera, graduate student in Philosophy at Penn State, and Nicolas Parra, who is a visiting student at Penn State as he completes his M.A. degree from Universidad de los Andes in Bogata, Columbia, join me for episode 21 of the Digital Dialogue.

The impetus for this episode was a brief exchange between Axelle and Nicolas on the blog entitled: Gorgias and Socrates: The Feast of Friendship.  I thought it would be excellent to invite them to the Digital Dialogue to discuss the issues they raised there about the possibility of a noble kind of rhetoric, one that would not necessitate a polemical relationship between rhetoric and philosophy.

Digital Dialogue 21 with Axelle Karera and Nicolas Parra: Rhetoric and Philosophy

There were a number of passages to which Nicolas and Axelle appealed in the course of the discussion.  Nicolas referred to these:

  1. (455d7-456c5) where Gorgias uncovers to Socrates the power of rhetoric and tells his story with the sick person and his brother, the physician.
  2. (497b5-11) Gorgias' first intervention in the conversation of Socrates with Callicles.
  3. (506a10-506b3) Gorgias' second intervention in the conversation of Socrates with Callicles.
  4. (521d7-522a8) Socrates' statement that he is the one who practices the true political art and where he compares himself with a doctor.
  5. (503b1-2) Socrates' allusion to a rhetoric aiming towards the just that has not yet been seen. (504d6-504e2) Socrates ilustrates what would it mean to be a good rhetor.
Axelle reports the following:

I referred specifically to the analogies in the Protogoras. The relevant passages are: 329c-333c.

The crucial debate between Protagoras and Socrates about the unity of virtue (argued by using the analogies) is found from 349b-360d.

Knowledge - referred to here as the "measuring know" - is found from 356d-e.

Finally, Socrates recognizes that he seems to have finished the conversation by endorsing Protagoras' position (which was contrary to his at the beginning), and vice versa for Protagoras, is found on 361a-362a.

In the spirit of the last Digital Dialogue, I have tried to add a picture to give a sense of interlocutors and of the context of the discussion.

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'Relying on One's Own Voice, While Relying On Others Words'

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Among the numerous places where one finds Protagoras and Socrates having a major disagreement is over Simonides poem. According to Protagoras' understanding of Simonides poem, there is a contradiction in Simonides discussion of being good (339d). Socrates argues against this point by pointing to the difference between being and good and becoming good. This distinction gives way to what seems to be a critique of the use of poetry. The text reads:

"I've always felt that discussions about poetry are exactly like those parties thrown by low-class, vulgar people-they do the same: they aren't capable of entertaining each other over their drinks just with their own company, with the sound of their own voices and their own ideas-because of their lack of sophistication-so they drive up the price of flute-girls by paying a lot of money to get a "voice" in from somewhere else-the sound of the flute-and then rely on that "voice" for entertaining one another. But at parties where decent, classy people are drinking together, educated people, you won't find any flute-girls, or dancing girls, or harp-girls. No. You'll find they're quite capable of entertaining one another just with their own company, without any of that kind of silly, adolescent nonsense, relying on the sound of their own voices, taking turns to speak and to listen to one another in an orderly fashion- even if they drink a whole lot of wine. The same applies to meetings like this one here: as long as the people taking part are the sort of people most of us claim to be, then they shouldn't need any outside voice, not even the voice of poets and songwriters- who can't be asked anything about what they're saying, and usually when people bring them into a discussion you get some people saying the poet means one thing and discussing something they have no way of proving one way or the other. No, they don't bother with those sorts of discussions; they just engage with one another through their own ideas making their own claims, and testing and defending them in turn" (337b-348a). 

The initial reading of this quote might be understood as a criticism of the use of poetry itself. Yet, this understanding is complicated by the fact that a few lines later Socrates quotes the poet Homer (348d). Perhaps this is just a contradiction, but there seems to be more to the issue than this.

            If we take seriously that there is more to be taken from Socrates' quote than a mere disdain for poetry, one might find that it makes sense to consider Socrates concern to be an issue of the misuse of poetry rather than poetry itself. Thus, Socrates' problem lies in what he considers to be the difference between educated and uneducated uses of poetry. Socrates is critiquing Protagoras methodological use of poetry. Protagoras, according to Socrates, has fruitless methods insofar as he attempts to provide Socrates with an account of what was meant by the poet.  This approach ends all chances for dialogue since one person cannot be more prepared to express what the poet meant than any other person since there is no way to confirm this (specifically if the poet him/herself is not there for confirmation). A point to be added to this is that one can never fully come to terms with the implications of one's words even if one is careful to attempt to establish certain goals for those words. Therefore even the poet may not know all that is to be understood from his/her poem. This method is juxtaposed to the ways in which educated persons use poetry. For the educated the focus is not on the truth of the poet or the poem, but rather a truth that comes as the result of dialogue. Dialogue not about what the poem was intended to mean, or truly means, but about one's ideas of the poem.

                 The final line of the quote suggests that dialogue about poetry is not pointless conversation, but dialogue aimed at testing and defending ideas. But the question remains as to the purpose of testing and defending one's ideas about poetry. Charles L. Griswold Jr. provides some insight into an answer to this question in his essay "Relying on Your Own Voice: An Unsettled Rivalry of Moral Ideals in Plato's Protagoras." Griswold begins by turning the readers' attention to the breakdown in conversation between Protagoras and Socrates at 336a-b. Here we find that Socrates threatens to end the conversation if Protagoras does not agree to answer Socrates' questions with more precise answers. On a superficial level this seems to be a clash between sophistical and philosophical techniques, but Griswold argues that this clashing suggests something far deeper. It suggests a difference in Protagoras' and Socrates' moral ideals. Put differently, the potential end of dialogue between Socrates and Protagoras sheds light on the difference between each speaker's stake in the conversation and thus their differential idea of relying on one's own voice.

                 Griswold interprets Protagoras' understanding of relying on one's own voice as being able to provide an interpretation of a text and to account for that interpretation. In Griswold's words "Protagoras spoke in his own voice, answering Socrates challenge point-by-point and giving every indication of taking responsibility for his account" (290). This differs starkly from what Griswold believes Socrates means by relying on one's own voice. For Socrates the core of relying on one's own voice has nothing to do with originality or exegesis. It is about self-reliance, responsibility and accountability.  Self-reliance refers to an unwillingness to rely on the voice of others, unless one exams that which is being said. Accountability refers to holding oneself to the standards of reason when responding to questions. Responsibility refers to standing by or abandoning one's view in accordance with reason (292). As such relying on one's own voice, for Socrates, involves a type of dialogue in which one both speaks and listens, and in listening one remains open to changing one's position.

                 Griswold highlights Socrates and Hippocrates discussion about Protagoras as a clear example of Socrates illustrating what he means by relying on one's own voice. When Hippocrates speaks to Socrates about Protagoras, Socrates asks Hippocrates if he has considered what learning from Protagoras will do to his soul. The soul, Socrates explains, is the "thing which determines (by turning out either bad or good) whether you whole life goes well or badly" (313a). Griswold considers this to be Socrates appeal to the idea that concern with one's welfare has to involve a concern for one's soul, particularly the direction of one's soul. The direction of one's soul is determined by using philosophical reason which requires seeking an answer to the question 'what is best for one's soul?' (296).   The best direction cannot be determined by following that which nourishes the soul; it requires a search for that which is good for the soul.

                 Socrates presses Hippocrates to search for what is best for his soul. But, such an approach is almost oppositional to the approach of Protagoras. Protagoras, according to Griswold, is concerned with orienting the soul towards mastery. As a sophist, Protagoras seeks to master what he teaches which will result in wealth and reputation (303).  Thus in conclusion we find that Protagoras is not concerned with using philosophical reason to work towards finding the truth of what is best for the soul. He has an idea of what is best for the soul and promotes it; this does not take seriously the usefulness of dialogue; It does not take seriously the reciprocal relationship between speaking, listening, and being open to changing one's position. All of which are crucial to Socrates ethical ideal and his notion of the proper use of poetry and thus relying on one's own voice. Such an understanding of Socrates' and Protagoras' differential uses of poetry might also be useful for coming to terms with how it is that both Socrates and Protagoras both use rhetoric, but only Protagoras is identified as a sophist.

 

Works Cited:

  • Charles L. Griswold Jr. "Relying on Your Own Voice: An Unsettled Rivalry of Moral Ideals in Plato's Protagoras." The Review of Metaphysics 53, no. 2 (Dec 1999): 283-307.
  • Plato (2005). Protagoras and Menos. London: Penguin Classics. Trans. Adam Beresford.

 

The One Thing We Can Understand

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Hey Everyone,

You know I find it interesting that as Wise as Socrates is, in that he understands that compared to what is to be known we know nothing, he does profess to understand one thing.

"I, who say I understand nothing other than the activities of love, will surely not protest, nor will Agathon and Pausanias, nor will Aristophanes, who spends all his time with Dionysus and Aphrodite, nor will any of the others I see here. Of course, it's not fair for those of us who're reclining in the last positions, but if those who go earlier speak in a beautiful and satisfactory manner, we'll be content. Good luck to Phaedrus! Let him begin his tribute to Love." (177d, Symposium)



(I would say start this right after you finish the comment above, as this is AVA's tribute to LOVE, I mean they made a whole CD and movie about it, Just there if you want it, if not, no worries)

This says a lot, and I know we've discussed this in class too, but I think that he finally claims to understand something fully is an awesome statement about us as people. Now I understand that this is a different sense of Love, even beyond the unconditional compassionate Love that we may understand it to be. Love we come to understand is more the desire of the Beautiful in that we may become happy by possessing the beautiful.

" "Because happy people are happy through possessing good things," she continued, "and there's no need to ask beyond that, 'What does the person who wants to be happy want?' This seems to be a final and complete answer." (205 a, Symposium) "

"Do you think that this yearning, this love, is common to all human beings, and that everyone wants good things to be their own forever? What would you say?" "As you say," I replied, "it's common to all." "Then why is it, Socrates," she asked, "that we don't speak of everyone as loving, if in fact everyone does always love these very things? Why do we speak instead of some people as loving and others as not?" "I wonder about that myself," I replied. "But you shouldn't wonder," she said....... (205a, Symposium) "Well, that is the way it is with love, also. In general, every desire by everyone for good things and for happiness is 'all-powerful and treacherous Love.' Yet those who turn him in his diverse forms (whether in connection with making money, with fondness for athletics, or with philosophy), are not spoken of as loving, nor are they called lovers. Rather, those who go after one particular form of love, and zealously pursue it, have the name of the whole, love, and they are spoken of as loving and are called lovers." (205d, Symposium)

Now I realize that was a lot to quote but I feel they make good points. The first quote is a wrap-up to Socrates's discussion on what Love is, arriving at that it is the desire for the Beautiful, and Diotima goes on to say that the Beautiful is what is good. But in the second quote we find Diotima going over the difference between, general desire for good things and happiness and pursuing one form of love completely and wholly. So for me personally I take from that being the difference between impulsive appreciation of something, and dedicated devotion to the pursuit of something or maintaining it.

So I've realized that for an opening post this has gone on quite long enough. So what I would ask is along the lines of: Being that Love is the Pursuit of Happiness in this context, can we really understand or Know Happiness, or only its Pursuit? In this, do we all know what it is to pursue Happiness, or can we achieve it, prefect Love and attain happiness?

"...Aren't you aware," she said, "that only there with it, when a person sees the beautiful in the only way it can be seen, will he ever be able to give birth, not to imitations of virtue, since he would not be reaching out toward an imitation, but to true virtue, because he would be taking hold of what is true? By giving birth to true virtue and nourishing it, he would be able to become a friend of the gods, and if any human being could become immortal, he would." (211e, Symposium)

Thoughts and Opinions Most Welcome.

Love, Peace and Wisdom,

Namaste,

Drew

The Doctrine of The Blog

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Hey Everyone,

I hope your having a Beautiful and Wonderful Day first and foremost. Next, I thought that what Prof. Long said about starting a sort of self laid out code for us to go by was a pretty cool idea. Since a few of you showed interest, here's the post that we can start it on, and pick up on it later. So maybe everyone throw in one or two not 'rules' but maybe thoughts that we should keep in mind while online. So I'll go ahead and throw mine in: We are all Individuals, of different beliefs, faiths, creeds, and preferences. We all feel Pain and Pleasure, Despair and Joy, so let us in our actions here, do our very best to make this a place where we may take Pleasure in sharing our thoughts and opinions, and continuing a community with which, through pursuing Truth we share the Joy of mutual growth.

Let me know what you think,

Love, Peace, and Wisdom, 

Be Well Everyone,

Drew

Myers-Briggs Persuasion

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So I know we've moved passed the Phaedrus but I had a conversation with a friend the other day that reminded me of an issue in that text.

My friend pressured me into taking one of those Myers Briggs personality tests.  In the ensuing discussion we commented on the possibility of better communication through the recognition of the different personality types defined by the test.  This reminded me of the section of the Phaedrus wherein Socrates claims that truly good speech making requires the knowledge of the different types of souls and how different sorts of speeches may persuade them (271d-272b).  Relating this back to the personality test, there were some personality types that relied on reason as their mode of thought where as others were most affected by emotion, etc.  If one could identify someone's personality I feel it would be possible to tailor one's rhetoric to either emphasize logos or pathos, logic or emotive force, when the occasion calls.  Anyway, I thought this made for an interesting practical application of Socrates' ideas of speech making.

Reconsidering Simonides

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I have been spending a great amount of time thinking about the place of Simonides' poem in the Protagoras. What I am most troubled by is this notion of poetic interpretation and the place of the interpreter. Specifically, I am pointing to the creative interpretations of this poem that Socrates offers. What is problematic for me is this idea that Socrates' perspective is perhaps so far away from the interpretation Simonides intended. At this point I wonder: "What is point is Socrates wanting to make in his interpretations since he knew the poem so well?" In other words, I am having some trouble reconciling the fact that Socrates knows the poem, but wants to almost "rewrite" it in the sense that his interpretations almost lack context.

So, I have decided to grapple with this issue by addressing it in another way. I think now that what is most important to Socrates in this public display of his interpretations is that he does it to share. In this sense, his outrageousness is to demonstrate that we should utilize our own voices when thinking about things, and in particular, poetry. Most importantly, I think, Socrates shows that he is willing to challenge himself in thinking critically. It is by this act of challenging himself that others can engage with him on what is being described. By doing this, Socrates engages in what we have talked about before; community in dialogue. The fact that the interpretation is "right" or "wrong" doesn't matter much. Moreover, the context of the poem itself and what we believe to have been the purpose of the writer means something very different than what we would normally give it. What do you think?

The Greek Mob.

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While going back over the text, I came upon a passage that mentioned mob mentality:

Agathon: 'Surely you don't think I'm so obsessed with the theater that I don't realize that, to anyone who's intelligent, a few sensible people are more frightening than a senseless mob?
Socrates: I would not be behaving well, Agathon, if I thought of you as someone boorish. On the contrary, I know perfectly well that if you should meet some people you think are wise, you would care more about their reaction than about that of any mob. We, however, are not wise ourselves - we were also there at the theater and were part of that mob. But if you did happen to meet some other people who are wise, you surely would be ashamed to do something you thought was shameful in front of them. Is that what you're saying?
Agathon: What you say is true
Socrates: But you wouldn't be ashamed, if you thought you were doing something shameful in front of most people?' (194b-d)

So, this brought me to thinking about how we've been discussing love and all its different facets, along with those same perspectives on gratification. Be it gratification for the good, or gratification of a purely divergent nature, there are always boundaries about achieving this gratification - who we wouldn't mind being in front of, who it would be awkward to have witness things like this, etc. Do individual people influence our actions because society has made that person, for example Mom and Dad, someone you need to seem innocent in front of? Or has it ended up that way for some other reason than society setting up norms? I'm trying to open up a discussion about the reasoning behind shame in front of individual people, as opposed to a large group of strangers.

The Tragic Comedy of Aristophanes

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It seems that throughout The Symposium, Plato seems to delight in making fun of Aristophanes, the famous comedic playwright who lampooned Socrates The Clouds (which is also mentioned in Plato's Apology as one of the factors that contributed to Socrates' death). The first occurrence of these Platonic shenanigans is when Aristophanes gets the hiccups:

After Pausanias paused, Aristodemus said that Aristophanes was to speak next, but by chance he had a bad case of the hiccups, from overeating or something else, and couldn't talk. However Aristophanes did say, "Eryximachus, it would be appropriate for you either to stop my hiccups or else to speak for me until I'm able to stop them."

Erximachus replies: "If you hold your breath a long time perhaps the hiccups will be willing to stop. But if not, gargle with water, and if they're very severe, grab something you think will tickle your nose and make yourself sneeze!" (185c-186a)

As discussed in class, throughout Eryximachus' speech we are distracted with the image of Aristophanes trying desperately to cure his hiccups by holding his breath, gargling water, and finally tickling his nose to sneeze (allegedly more than once). Aristophanes sees the humor in his situation, and after his hiccups have ceased he makes a joke at Eryximachus' expense. Eryximachus is not amused and replies:

"Aristophanes, my good man, watch what you're doing! Though you're supposed to be giving a speech, you're making jokes, and forcing me to be on my guard against your speech in case you say something funny, when you could march out to speak in peace." (189a)

When Aristophanes points out that it was only a joke, Eryximachus replies "Do you think you can make me a target and get away with it, Aristophanes...Put your mind to it and speak as though you were going to be called to account, though I may decide to let you off."(189b-c) It is never good for a comedian when a joke falls flat, and Aristophanes awkwardly moves on to his amusing speech about Love. Later in the dialogue, however, Socrates in his speech about Love alludes to Aristophanes' speech:

"A certain speech claims," she continued, "that lovers are those who seek their other halves, but my account states that love is of neither the half nor the whole, unless, my friend, it happens to be good, since people are willing even to have their hands and feet cut off if they think they're harmful to them. I don't think people hold on to something that is their own unless one calls that which is personal and one's own 'good' and what belongs to another 'bad.' People don't love anything other than what is good. Does it seem otherwise to you?" (205d-e)

It would seem Socrates has done to Aristophanes exactly what he attempted to do to Eryximachus. Aristophanes realizes this in 212c: "Everyone applauded after Socrates concluded his speech, except for Aristophanes, who tried to say something about how Socrates referred to his own speech in his remarks." But before he has a chance to respond, in walks the flamboyant Alcibiades who takes control of the party, leaving Aristophanes thoroughly ignored.

It is obvious to the casual reader that Plato must have use The Symposium to turn the tables on Aristophanes. Plato literally gives him a taste of his own medicine by using Eryximachus, a Doctor, as the person who gets upset at Aristophanes' lampooning, followed by Socrates using Aristophanes' own methods against him by addressing and thoroughly dismissing Aristophanes' speech through Diotima. At the end Plato gets one more jab at Aristophanes by both drinking him under the table and lecturing him that "the same man could know how to compose both a comedy and a tragedy and that a skillful tragedian could create comedies." (223d)

What have we learned from this? That Plato knows how to hold a grudge.

Dialogue and Cowardice

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From the recent comment made by Vox_dei, I've been prompted into a few thoughts.

Those who expect backlash often seem to get it, not because of their original thought, but the way they approach expressing that idea, setting up harsh words in expectation of ones being put against them. I think this can be related directly to our discussion on agonistic dialogue weeks back. The attitude of the poster sets up the groundwork for how the rest of the discussion will go - in the case of a person starting out on the defensive, the dialogue continues as a battle.

And again, relating this to class - I think this is one of the faults/benefits of the blog in the classroom. It's very easy for a group of people on the internet (who have never interacted otherwise) to immediately dive into discussions with this agonistic atmosphere (for a number of reasons, anonymity being the most obvious of them).

The way the blog in the classroom works, however, seems to counter this perfectly. By having class alongside the blog we get some personal interaction, something I've found truly pushes people to be respectful towards one another. Even with the students from Boston College, because we knew they were students, there was a certain amount of unspoken respect for them that often isn't terribly apparent on the internet. I think we could attribute this to knowing something about them. They posted a picture on the blog, they introduced themselves, and we had an idea where they were coming from.

So from that, do we think community requires a sort of identity to be attributed to it?

Where'd all the women go?

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Ok, throughout the semester, I feel like the elephant in the room, besides the homo- erotic tendencies Socrates outright displays, is the absence of women. Now, I realize that during this time of history women had a rather minor role in politics and in law making and in conversations regarding philosophy and the like, however there more or less is a lack of the female interaction in any of the texts we have read. During the symposium, all the men are bothered by the presence by the flute girl and Eryximachus dictates, 

 "Then, now that it's been decided that drinking is to be as each desires and not compulsory, ,the next thing I propose is that we dismiss the flute-girl who just cam in. Let her play for herself, or if she prefers, for the women inside. We can entertain each other today with speeches, and if you are willing, I'd also like to offer you a proposal about the topic of speeches."

 With this exchange it's obvious in their eyes that "men are talking" and this is no business for women. I'd like to address this ancient sexist idea for a moment and ask, what was Socrates relationship with women (if he had any)? I find one interaction, at least in our prescribed reading about/ with Diotima concerning the nature of love and procreation. She goes on to say, 

 " Pregnancy and procreation instill immortality in a living mortal being and these things are impossible in what lacks harmony." 

 This taken from Socrates' speech from the symposium, dictates the importance of women, because in my perspective, they are quite integral to the procreation process. However again the door is left open for lack of women when she says later, 

 "Those who are pregnant in the soul however - for these are people who are even more pregnant in their souls than in their bodies, these people are pregnant with and give birth to what is appropriate for the soul. What, then, is it that it is appropriate for the soul to bring forth? Good sense and the rest of virtue, of which all poets and procreators as well as those artisans who are said to be inventors."

This sexual ambiguity is a bit distorted for me. It seems throughout these works of Socratic dialogue there is a continuous justification for the exclusion of women in life. They represented about half the worlds population then do so now, so my question remains, where'd they all go?

Eros is not "good"?

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This is short but I found it very provocative.

I am writing my paper on love with a focus on the symposium. While writing a page about Eros I came across this chain of connections which leads to the conclusion of Eros not being "good".

"When it is necessary to experience desire, we tend to desire what we lack. And in the case of not lacking anything, then we tend to not desire at all; we become content. In the context of Eros, Eros lacks something to love. Considering that in the Symposium, Eros loves beauty and overall beautiful things; then Eros must lack "good" things because "good" things are considered beautiful. (Symposium; 201c) "

I have always thought of Eros as being "good", but this chain lacks loopholes...your thoughts?

So...whats the point?

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I'm having a hard time figuring out what the point of the Symposium is supposed to be. Maybe it's a strictly contemplative dialogue where there is no real conclusion to be had. But I feel as though there is something strangely significant about Alcibiades having the last word of the Symposium. The order of the speeches is such:

-Phaedrus (178a)
-Pausanias (180c)
-Eryximachus (186a)
-Aristophanes (189c)
-Agathon (195a)
-Socrates (201d)
-Alcibiades (214e)

Normally, at least so far in this class, I have been looking for primary points to be made by Socrates towards the end, and certainly his speech is critical to understanding what is going on in the dialogue, but looking at the structure of the book that Prof. Long suggested in class (which stresses 7 speeches) that places Aristophanes in the middle. This can create a sort of chiasm which emphasizes either Aristophanes or Alcibiades (since he closes the cycle). The emphesis would look like this:

-Phaedrus (178a)
----Pausanias (180c)
-------Eryximachus (186a)
----------Aristophanes (189c)
-------Agathon (195a)
-----Socrates (201d)
-Alcibiades (214e)

However, I don't think that the Symposium is primarily a comedy. So I don't think the pure Chiastic structure works. There seems to be a build up of speeches post-Aristophanes that leads to Alcibiades praising Socrates and confirming that Diotima spoke truly about love, and that Socrates also truly understands love, which points backwards to emphasize Socrates' speech. So perhaps the structure of emphasis looks like this:

-Phaedrus (178a)
-Pausanias (180c)
-Eryximachus (186a)
-Aristophanes (189c)
---Agathon (195a)
-----Socrates (201d)
---Alcibiades (214e)

I'm not really a structuralist, so I don't think that the entire point of the Symposium can be found in analyzing the structure. However, I think a lot can be said about any text when we look at how the sequence of events occurs and what the "ah-ha" moment is. There is just something really strange about Alcibiades coming in and praising Socrates at the end, instead of letting Socrates' words stand on their own.

Any thoughts?

Eryximachus: Are you a true physician or just arrogant?

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In our last class meeting we discussed Eryximachus and attempted to agree on what his role is in the dialogue. We all agreed that his speech and attendance in the banquet is key; the position of his speech must be critical as it is placed in the middle of all the other speeches. We also tried to understand the importance of the curing of Aristophanes' hiccoughs during Eryximachus' speech.

It is evident that Eryximachus distinguishes himself from all others present at the banquet because of his frequent medical interjections and references of his techne as a doctor. In every opportunity he finds, Eryximachus does not fail to demonstrate and offer his medical opinion. At his introduction he delivers a quick lecture on drunkenness at 176c-d and then later on hiccoughs in reference to Aristophanes' own spasms of hiccoughs at 185d-e).

"....I probably will provoke less displeasure when I tell you the truth about the nature of intoxication. I believe it has become clear from medical practice that intoxication is a harmful thing for human beings. I myself would not voluntarily drink too deeply, nor would I advise anyone to do so, especially when they still have a hangover the previous day" (176d).

When Aristophanes has a fit of hiccoughs, he turns to Eryximachus for help. "Eryximachus, it would be appropriate for you either to stop my hiccups or else to speak for me until I'm able to stop." The doctor replies, "On the contrary, I'll do both [....] While I'm speaking, you hold your breath a long time perhaps the hiccups will be willing to stop. But if not, gargle with water, and if they're vere severe, grab something you think will tickle your nose and make yourself sneeze!..." (185 d-e).

Yet not only does Eryximachus speak like a doctor when he is asked for his medical advice, but also in his speech on Eros he still speaks like a man of medicine. At 186b, Eryximachus begins his speech by referencing his pride in his profession. " I will speak initially from the medical perspective because I treat that art as preeminent." In fact, it seems that Plato is making a point of bringing out the medical personality that Eryximachus possesses. However, it is not only Eryximachus but all those who are present that Plato seems to bring out individual characteristics of each person, such as Aristophanes and Agathon who have characteristics of their profession as poets.

At 186a-b, Eryximachus makes a rather arrogant remark: he claims that all he knows come from his knowledge of medicine. "I think that one sees from the perspective of my art, that is medicine, how great and marvelous the god is and how he permeates everything, both human and divine." Is Eryximachus a conceited physician? Also, going back to the question of the importance of the curing of Artistophanes' hiccoughs during Eryximachus' speech, does Plato want us to think that Eryximachus is to be ridiculed? A man of medicine has always been the typical image of authority for arguably, our lives are in his/her hands. Does Eryximachus know what's best? I

Weekly Podcast 11!

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PSUAGP200 Weekly round up 11 (edited).mp3

Here it is, we did our best to emulate the atmosphere of the Symposium (one speech in particular, kudos to anyone that guesses right) and our discussion of what's gone on in class, on the blog, and in the background this past week or so.

Socrates Reads Titus Andronicus

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While reading Alcibiades's encomium to Socrates, I was struck by the contrary images of Socrates as a potential lover for the young man and the philosopher as a man at the war-front.  What is the reader to make of these two contradictory images?  What do these images suggest together?

 

In attempting an answer, the tales of Socrates in war recall Phaedrus's description of the martial and heroic lover in his speech: "If I may speak candidly, when Homer says that a god 'breathes strength' into certain heroes, that, coming from Love himself, is what Love does to lovers....Moreover, only lovers are willing to die for someone else..." (179b).   The description that Phaedrus provides concords with the heroic tales of Socrates that Alcibiades tells to the gathering.  Moreover, it provides to the class a perspective of the philosopher that has not yet been seen before in the other texts that were read during the semester.  Now, Socrates is a man who acts with courage and selflessness, a man more like a Greek hero from Homer's epics rather than a character from a Platonic dialogue: Alcibiades "...as a person, there is no other human being like him, neither among the ancients nor among those who exist now" (221c).

 

And this is fine.  Let Alcibiades praise the man.

 

Likewise, it is good that Socrates has lit the internal spark of desire and wonderment in Alcibiades: Alcibiades, "I have been struck and bitten by the arguments in his philosophy, which take hold more savagely than a viper when they seize the soul..." (218b). Yet, Socrates's hold on Alcibiades seems false.  If the young man was wounded by cupid's arrow, he seems to have pulled the arrow out and forgotten its sting.  Alcibiades can be mesmerized by Socrates but has Socrates produced an offspring?  Has the philosopher been progenitive?

 

Through Socrates, Diotima says "When he attaches himself to someone beautiful, I believe, and associates with him, he gives birth and brings forth what he was pregnant with before, both while in that person's presence and while remembering him when he's absent" (209c).  Yet, knowing the failures that Alcibiades will later face in the Greek invasion of Sicily, and the shameful accusations and charges that will later force him to flee to Sparta, Alcibiades seems to have failed to imitate his lover.  And he has forgotten his very own words.  Away from his lover, Alcibiades has forgotten the lover Socrates.

 

Likewise, Socrates's ability to mesmerize the young man by his own actions and philosophy engenders nothing more than glowing admiration in the text.

 

So, Socrates the philosopher and the courageous man at the war-front has provided to the reader a figure worthy of love.  Yet, this worthy love leads to nothing more than admiration and awe in the text for Alcibiadies and, earlier in the text, Aristodemus.

 

And in the dialogue's conclusion, when Plato writes that "...Socrates was forcing them to accept that the same man could know how to compose both a comedy and a tragedy and that a skillful tragedian could create comedies" is Plato suggesting that this dialogue is a tragedy?  After all, there is a comedic element to Alcibiades's intrusion into the dialogue, which causes the party to stir in laughter.  And yet, when the reader knows that Alcibiades will not imitate Socrates's heroic action--the action of the lover possessed by Eros--what is there to provoke laughter at the dialogue's end?

 

Is this dialogue a well-crafted tragedy tinged by comedy?

The Counter-Culture to the Counter-Culture: Love and Sex in the Modern Age

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All of this talk of love, sex and gratification has gotten me to examine how these ideas presented to us in The Symposium and The Phaedrus affect us in contemporary culture. It was a curious coincidence that I read an article published in Newsweek called "Sexual Revolution, Part II: The Fight over Abstinence at Harvard" by Lisa Miller. It presents an interesting counter viewpoint to the one that is often presented to us at college.

To briefly summarize the article, at Harvard University there is a group called the True Love Revolution (TLR), which represents, according to their charter, a "new form of feminism" by advocating abstinence:

"Recently the [TLR] has drawn fresh ire because it added to its mission statement, which had formerly supported sexual abstinence as a lifestyle choice, a platform that seemed calculated to ignite a culture war on campus. The new statement asserted that sex outside of marriage is "harmful to both parties"; it embraced "traditional marriage" (that is, not gay marriage); and it argued that choosing abstinence is "true feminism" in that "it recognizes the natural characteristics, strengths, and abilities of women and seeks to affirm them in this identity."

Feminists and progressives have been adamantly opposed to TLR. They believe the group promotes a retrograde view of sex and relationships. In an editorial for The Harvard Crimson, Silpa Kovvali attacks the credibility of the group, "To say that a consensual sexual act is degrading to you is the complete opposite of feminism. For women to take control of the sex act can be an incredibly empowering experience."

My own personal opinion is that this sort of hardline abstinence and confrontational rhetoric from far-right Christian groups is not helpful to the discussion of sex on college campuses nor is it very realistic (and their views on homosexual relationships is draconian). However, I do agree with the conclusion the author of the article comes to on the much broader views of love and sex. "It is an articulation of students' dissatisfaction with sex and sex talk on campus" Miller explains. She goes on to mention author Donna Freitas, who says in her book Sex and the Soul:

"[Freitas] believes college students are not given an opportunity to tell the truth about what they want out of sex and relationships--desires that can include courtship, romance, and, yes, chocolates--without drawing the derision of their peers and even their professors. Their health service gives them condoms and lectures about sexually transmitted infections; their friends boast and complain endlessly about hookups real and imagined. The average college student is miserable about sex. The idea of getting to step away from it is really appealing. Groups like TLR (and at Princeton and MIT, the Anscombe Society), are missing an opportunity if they don't invite a more nuanced conversation about sex."

With all the discussion in class and online of gratifying the lover and non-lover, and Plato's different views of Love, it's interesting to see yet another very different point of view. Freitas conclusions are remarkably similar to the discussions of Love in The Symposium as something much more than mere physical attraction. True Love is on a deeper emotional, spiritual, and intellectual level, unlike the "shameful" gratification which is not any of those things. It seems TLR and other groups are a counter-culture to the counter-culture, one that seems to stress a nobler sort of gratification by ignoring the college cultural norms and instead cultivating the feeling of love and sex on your own terms. "Choosing abstinence can carry a strong countercultural message," explains theologian Christine Firer Hinze, "and a vision of personal fulfillment beyond immediate gratification."

I am in no way trying to advocate abstinence; like I mentioned earlier in the blog, I believe that sort of rhetoric is neither realistic nor helpful to a healthy discussion on this subject. Instead this "Sexual Revolution: Part II" offers us something rather unique: Choice. It is a choice, and a very personal one, that is not forced upon us by the abstinence-only culture or the free-love-hook-up culture. Miller concludes, "Teaching kids that saying no can feel as good as saying yes--that's a revolution." And how liberating is that?

Source: http://www.newsweek.com/id/221456

Language; or why we cannot communicate.

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As we've been addressing rhetoric and communication throughout the semester, as it is an important part of Socratic politics, I though this would be an interesting little topic to discuss. All of our conversations up until this point--whether we are discussing religion, rhetoric, sex, or any of the other hundreds of things we have blogged about--there has always remained the assumption that language works, i.e. that we communicate, even if on an imperfect level. I would like to challenge this assumption, specifically by examining the idea of the 'death of the author'.

I would like to purpose that we do not, in fact, communicate. The author is not simply dead, in the sense of literature, but in communication, language, also. I would like to purpose that all communication, even the reading of this blog post, is illusion. We assume we communicate because we speak, we have a 'shared' language, you can read what I'm writing. But, first and foremost, we are disconnected. The author is dead: you have no idea of what my intention is in writing this blog, to the point of the words themselves. When I say the word "dog" we all think of something different. You may think of your dog, I think of mine, and someone who has never seen a dog may thing of the generic definition of a dog, but above all else, we have different interpretations of the word "dog". Therefore, when I say "dog", what I'm thinking isn't transferred to you, it isn't directly communicated.

In itself, the word means nothing. This is evident by the fact that a Klingon word means nothing to me, but something to a real Trekkie. My English word "dog" means one thing to me, even generally, as an English speaker, but to all non-English speakers, it is merely sound (or electronic bites displayed on the screen). It has no inherent meaning, we have to assign meaning to the word itself. Due to this fact, even indirect communication is, strictly speaking, an impossibility. When I say "dog", I have to assume that we're speaking the same language. Even when we are, there is no fixed meaning to the word itself that translates from one individual to anther, both individuals simply having a perspective on this fixed meaning. It is constructed meaning.

But society cannot construct that meaning, it is merely a construct itself. The meaning must be constructed by individuals. But, back to the second paragraph, it is impossible to convey the meaning of the sound to another. Therefore, when I say "dog", and I mean one thing, the meaning you give to the word "dog" is completely different. All language, I challenge, is like this. When others talk to us, we are constantly assigning meaning to the sounds they make. They are not conveying the meaning to us, and there is no inherent meaning in the sound itself, we are giving the meaning to the sound. Thus there is no real communication, if you understand communication to be the conveying of one idea, however imperfectly, from one person to another, because the ideas are not being conveyed between us, as the words have no similar meaning between us (only difference), we construct the ideas ourselves. When I say "dog", I am not transferring the notion, or idea, of dog into your head, you are constructing your notion of "dog" and attaching that notion to the word "dog" (the foundations of language).

There is much more to this argument, but I would like to flush it out over discussion.

Similar Cultures

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What I want to look at is what we spoke about in class today, specifically the male-male love/gratification social standard that is apparent in Pausanias' speech, but look at it in relation to our current society to see if it is really all that different.

The points that were addressed (182d-e through 184a) in class were as follows:
  • 1) Love is an open affair, not secret or hidden.
  • 2) In pure love, looks aren't as important as the mind/soul.
  • 3) The Lover (elder) pursues the beloved (the younger).
  • 4) The actions taken are made in attempt to impress and win over the beloved (or the Darling, as the translation goes).
  • 5) Actions made during this courtship procedure aren't subject to scrutiny, nor are they shameful.
  • 6) The father protects the son, the beloved.
  • 7) It is shameful to give into the chase quickly.
  • 8) This relationship is one that cultivates excellence in, at the very least, the younger.
  • 9) The Lover is the one gratified, not the Beloved.
 Now, as we are talking about our own personal interpretations of the 'cultural norm' (which often isn't necessarily what we think it ~should be) I'm sure there will be some disagreement (which is great!), so I would encourage people to put some input in if they see it as different. I would especially appreciate the input from the other college for this same reason.

As I see it, the Lover/Beloved relationship is one that is amazingly similar to our standardized Masculine/Feminine relationship. I feel like the parallels are striking, and while the social standards are (thankfully) breaking down, allowing for a variety of other sexual relationships, I belief most people wouldn't consider these the 'norm' (I think this discrimination is very obvious in our society, it can even be seen in our own class), but in order to make a point I'll work with what is considered 'normal.'

The major ones that stand out are three, four, six, seven and nine. Five to an extent, but I'll focus on the first batch. Activity is an attribute often assigned to the masculine stereotype. I know many people who would still be offended if a girl would walk up to a guy and try to pick him up (3). On the same note, look at how we talk about acts of sex. They are almost always (Male) (action)ed (Female) (9). If it is done the other way people usually jump right to number Seven.

The word 'slut' is a word that gets tossed around like nothing, and most people try to only attribute it to the female in a couple. If a girl 'puts out' quickly, she is labeled a slut... but... then wouldn't the guy have put out quickly also? The sexist double-standard is all too obvious here, I'm curious if the Greeks saw it the same way, especially in the rare case of Alcibiades.

Four and six are, as I see it, basically entirely the same. Daughters are still handed off by their fathers during marriage ceremonies and the courtship process between two people is usually extravagant and has no small lack of symbolic 'sizing up.' The series of 'stress tests' people put one another through is the key role in a lot of movies, even.

So that leaves one, two and eight.
One I think doesn't quite fit anymore. Most 'love-stuff' happens behind closed doors. PDA is often highly frowned upon (at least in the States) and most people just 'don't want to see it.' Two and eight seem to be ideals more than reality - something everyone has a little pithy quote for, but doesn't often put into practice. There is a lot of talk going on about these two in other blog posts, so I'll leave the thought there to keep things from getting too spread out.

So, in regards to the ones I view as similar, do others get the same feeling? That the remnants from this Greek social structure has bled through into current society, or at the very least similarly represent one another? With the Beloved effectively acting in the passive, submissive role that we now assign to femininity and the Lover acting in the dominating, active role that is traditionally masculine?

Free Love

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In Pausanias's speech, he discusses the different kinds of civilizations and how they treat love and gratification. He discusses the hedonistic tendencies of those in Elis and Boeotia, and the limited ways of the barbarians. Pausanias goes on to talk of the "customs" of the Athenians in regards to lovers' conduct.

He specifically says "Both the gods and human beings have provided complete license to the lover, as our rule states" (183c). This portion of his speech not only says a lot about his thoughts on love, but also an important commentary on the society. First and foremost, the Athenian society is sharply contrasted with the other two cultures. On one extreme, you have the hedonistic society, where gratification has no limits. An almost anarchist lawlessness is suggested. On the other end of the spectrum, barbarians limit all forms of gratification. A certain kind of tyranny is implied. The Athenians, however, have "rules" but freedom is also obviously very important.

In regards to love, it is interesting to note how freedom is foundational. I think we often take that for granted in our society that freedom to love and choose who we love and how we love (for the most part) is how things "ought to be". Ideas of arranged marriages and the like are pretty bizarre and ancient to us. Similarly, in the Athenian culture, the text clearly conveys that this foundational freedom is very central to their ideas of love. But always, it stays within the rules. It is interesting how the ways that love is conducted often reflects the political climate (anarchy and hedonism, tyranny and limitation, democracy and freedom within rules).

Digital Dialogue 20: Sophocles in Utah

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Michael Shaw, Associate Professor of Philosophy and Director of the Honors Program at Utah Valley University, and Marina McCoy, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Boston College join me for episode 20 of the Digital Dialogue.

sophocles-symposium-poster.jpgThis podcast was recorded at Sundance, UT, where we gathered at the invitation of Mike Shaw just after Marina and I participated in a symposium on Sophocles for the Honors program at UVU.

The symposium included two excellent student papers: Kristen Argyle's paper on Sophocles and Freud: The Tragedy of Mind offered a very sophisticated reading of Oedipus the King from the perspective Freudian psychology. Kelsea Park developed an original reading of the Antigone in her paper Feminine Humanity in which she demonstrated a very detailed and thoughtful engagement with the text. Both papers were beautifully written and professionally delivered.

In this episode, Mike Shaw talks about the excellent work being done by the Honors students at UVU.  We then enter into a broader more philosophical discussion of the theme of vulnerability in Sophocles, the relationship between the use of sight, hearing and touch as metaphors for specific ways of knowing and the larger question of the political implications of the Oedipus stories.

Digital Dialogue 20 with Michael Shaw and Marina McCoy: Sophocles in Utah


Below are a few pictures, on the right is a picture of Kristin Argyle and Kelsea Park responding to questions from the audience in response to their papers, with Mike Shaw moderating.  On the left is a picture of the recording of the digital dialogue we did at Sundance just after the panel.

Argyle and Park.jpgDD20BWpic.jpg





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