November 2009 Archives

Semi-Final End of the Year Digital Dialogue Update

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The official date for the podcast is Wednesday, December 9 at 11:00 AM at the Sparks Building in Room 11. If you haven't expressed interest and would still like to participate, comment below or e-mail me at cjy5020@psu.edu. There still isn't a set list of topics, so I'll just include the same list I've been posting. Professor Long will come up with a final list of topics to be discussed some time before the date we are planned to do it. I've also added a topic to the list for The Symposium:

1. Pursuit of the Good - The swan, effect on the soul, what is it?

2. The Nature of dialogue -- Agonistic (Protagorus, Gorgias) vs. Harmonic (Phaedrus)

3. Gorgias -- Rhetoric in pursuit of the Good, Callicles' leaky jars

4. Protagorus -- Can ethics be taught?

5. Do the ends justify the means?

6. The Soul -- The Chariot Allegory, punishment as a means of cleansing one's soul, its relationship with "the good"

7. Erotic Love and the role of the lover in Phadreus

8. Piety -- the role it plays in informing one's soul

9. Socrates' use of story and metaphor in Gorgias and Phaedrus.

10. The various speeches on Love in The Symposium

Update: Just got this email from the Multimedia Specialist Ryan Wetzel concerning the Podcast which I have included below:

Hello everyone,

I was given your names as the students involved in the group podcast recording for Professor Long's class on December 9th from 11 am until 1 pm.  Originally it was scheduled to occur in the Rider Building, but we have moved the location of the recording to room 11 in the Sparks Building.  If there are no objections, I would like to also film the recording as it occurs.  Please let me know if you do not want to be filmed.

Additionally, we're also filming a short documentary on Professor Long's class.  We were hoping to interview students from the class to get their perspective on the way that Professor Long integrated Digital Media (like podcasts, blogs, etc) into his class.  Would you be available for these interviews either before or after the podcast on December 9th?  Please let me know!

Thank you,
Ryan

The Ugly Truth

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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. At one point in Socrates' speech, a controversial idea briefly surfaces that relates to the nature of human beings from Ancient Greece through the twenty first century. Are we, by nature, extremely shallow and superficial creatures?

In Socrates' speech, he speaks in the voice of Diotima who says one

[m]ust believe that the beauty of souls is more valuable than that of the body, so that if someone who has a decent soul is not very attractive, he will be content to love him, to take care of him, and with him to search out an give birth to the sort of conversations that make young men better. As a result, he will be compelled to study the beauty in practical endeavors... and to see that all beauty is related so that he will believe that the beauty connected with the body is of little importance. (210c)

This talks about the importance of loving one's intellect and soul and mind over merely appearance. But this is not true to the core of human attraction, is it? According to Socrates real love disregards what one looks like, and if the other happens to be unattractive, it is insignificant because their soul overpowers what they look like. This is how I believe love should occur and be created within two people. We must look to people's cores and inside and cannot base who they are off of the "body", or appearance. Loving truly this way "makes young men better" because it is what's GOOD (a continuation of Socrates' persistent explanation of the "good"). In truth and good, "beauty connected with the body" truly is insignificant and meaningless.

People cannot help what they naturally look like, which is why it is unfair to ourselves and to each other to base judgements and what we think purely off what we see on the exterior. But think about our world. We are beyond superficial. In my psychology class, the professor spoke of ongoing studies that continue to prove how people tend to subconsciously match up and date others of about equal attractiveness. Have you ever seen a couple with one extremely good looking person and the other very unattractive? You may, but admit, it is rare. Now think about how many couples you know that seem to match and are very close in comparison in how attractive they are, whether it be very or not as good looking. It's all about the surface.

Think about the global hysteria to maintain perfection in appearance; people consumed with artificially modifying themselves through tanning beds, hair extensions, teeth whiteners, diet supplements, etc. Think about our media and shows like "The Biggest Loser", "America's Next Top Model", etc. Why do we do all of these things in our personal lives and in the media for the whole world to see? Why do we try so hard to go against nature and change how we look?

It is to attract the opposite sex.

Because in our world, whether you want to believe it or not, looks are extremely dominant. It is sad but for the most part, it is true. If we took the time to see people for what they are and their substance beyond appearance, I'm sure we would be witnessing a lot more love stories and a lot less heartbreak.

Eros and Socratic Midwifery

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In Socrates' account of his conversation about love with Diotima in the Symposium, he recalls that Diotima asks, "What is the function of love?" (206b3).  Socrates responds that he would not be seeking wisdom from Diotima if he knew, to which she responds, "Then I'll tell you. ...It is giving birth in beauty both in body and in soul" (206b8-9).  Socrates asks Diotima to elaborate, in reply to which Diotima states that "when something that is pregnant comes close to something beautiful, it becomes gentle and relaxes in the delight of procreation and giving birth.  When it comes near something ugly, however, it recoils and turns away, frowning and distressed.  It shrinks back and does not bring forth, but instead painfully continues to carry the foetus [sic] it contains" (206d4-8).

I cannot help but thing of this as an allegory for Socratic midwifery.  As this alternate term for Socratic irony indicates, the signature of Socrates' approach is its result: an admission of ignorance, of confusion about subjects of which one is a purported expert, but more importantly a birth of discovery, of new knowledge, hopefully, but if not knowledge then at least intellectual curiosity.  My question is: Is Socratic midwifery synonymous with love (eros), or at least similar to it?  As Dr. Long suggested at the beginning of the semester, an erotic desire is not simply carnal, but can be highly intellectual as well.  It seems to me that the Socratic method is much in line with Diotima's description of love, insofar as the dialectic orients its interlocutors toward something beautiful, that is, the Good, the Just, the Virtuous, and away from those things that are ugly and obfuscated by the shadow of ignorance.  Indeed, the dialectic catalyzes relief of the pain caused by the "fetus" of ignorance and lack of self-knowledge.  

It is also interesting to consider that Socrates' pursuit is in fact known by another name for love, philia.  But this love is brotherly or friendly, and does not connote the desire which our subject, eros, does. 

I would be interested in hearing everyone's opinions on this inquiry.  

Differences in love

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There are seven kinds of love in Symposium, according to different people. 

The first speech delivered by Phaedrus talks about love in a very artistic, literal way. He starts by telling the goddess of love and concludes that it is "the cause of our greatest blessings"(178c). he states that nothing is better than "blessing right from boyhood than a good lover" and "blessing for a lover than a darling"(178c).Here, I think is addressing homosexuality in Greek culture, which is very popular back then. The older one known as "lover" adores the younger one known as "darling". The love between them has something to do with virtue because he thinks that lovers are examples for darlings; in other words, because the darling are handsome and is leading by a good lover, he becomes a potentially good citizen for the state. "What people who intend to lead their lives in a noble and beautiful manner need is not provided by family, public honors, wealth, or anything else other than by love"(178d). This is because if love will cause shame of the lover if he tries to do something bad and his darling knows it. Vise versa. Phaedrus also believes that "if someone could come up with a technique by which a city or an army composed of lovers and their darlings could be created, there could be no better way of organizing their city"(179a). 

The second one who talks about love is Pausanias, an expert in law, according to google. He mainly distinguishes the "heavenly Aphrodite" and "common Aphrodite"(180d). Interestingly, he spends a paragraph talking how the heavenly Aphrodite has nothing to do with women, and how the "darlings" are all male. Besides, because the heavenly one is much older, the darlings she chooses are much stronger and cleverer. He claims that " those who are inspired by this love are oriented towards the male, cherishing what is by nature stronger and more intelligent"(181c). He also distinguishes three rules of love in Greek society. First, in Elis and Boeotia, the law is " it is noble to gratify one's lovers, and no one, either young or old, would say it is shameful."(182c). However, it is "shameful by law" in Ionia. He thinks that because Ionia is rules by "barbarians"(182c). The third love is what they are having in their city, which promotes "it is said to be more noble to love openly rather than secretly"(182d). Pausanias thinks this is the best because it encourages people to love whom they should, avoiding the ones they shouldn't. He states the following rules in love: 1) people should not accept their lovers immediately. 2) It is shameful to "love" someone because of political or economical reason. 

The third love is discussed in a doctor's perspective, carrying by Eryximachus. He adds something about Pausanias' speech by talking how healthy love and diseased love should be separated. "The love in healthy body is one thing and that in the sick body is another"(186c). He believes that it is "noble to gratify what is good and healthy in each body and should be done, but it is shameful to gratify what is bad and sick"(186c). He is talking about sexually needs here as well as situations of love: we should not love anyone just because he is very attractive, but because he has virtues. "Love as a whole has very great power, indeed, he is omnipotent, but love that brings about good with judiciousness and justice among us as well as among the gods, he is the one that has the greatest power (188e). 

Aristophanes then talks the origin of homosexual and heterosexuality by a Greek myth. He thinks that we are all only "half"(191c) and we are all longer the other "half". There were once "three kinds of human beings, not only two as now, male and female, but also a third that was composed of the other two."(189c) before Zeus cuts them into halves. The "third" ones are the heterosexuals now, and the "males" and "females" are homosexual now. The Homosexual males are most likely to be the best. After him, Agathon, whom Pausanias admires, talks what love is: "of all the happy gods, love is the happiest among them since he is the best and the most beautiful"(195a). He is also "youthful, gentle"(196c). Love is also fairy, careful, brave and intelligent.

 Socrates talks the sixth love. His love is more like the relationship between father and son, or teachers and students, since it forbids sexual relationship but advocates teaching and caring. He did not deliver long speeches, but talks what he think by dialogues. The first part is between him and Agothon. He thinks the followings: "first, is love the love of something, and second, is what something some thing that at the moment he lacks"(200e). Here, he thinks that love requires "such a person" one desires and the lover has not get this "person". Third, love is the desire of owning the "person". Forth, if the love is "motivated by love of beautiful things"(201a), and as Agothon said, it lacks beauty, and then there is nothing like love is good or beautiful. Fifth, " if love lacks what is beautiful and what is good is beautiful, he would also lack what is good"(201c). In other words, love is not good; if we substitute it, then we can say, "good people are not good at all". The part two is between Socrates and Diotima, who initially agrees with Agothon but then switched to Socrates. Their conversation mainly discusses the following statement. First, is love bad and ugly? Their compromise is: "don't say that what isn't beautiful is necessarily ugly, or what isn't good is necessarily bad"(202c). They also think "correct opinion"(202c) is the grey area between "knowledge"(202a), or having a good opinion with supportive evidences, and "ignorant", or having a good opinion without why it is good. They conclude that love is "demonic between god and mortal"(203a). It is between "knowledge" and "ignorant", which makes him want to be intelligent. Forth, love is the desire of having something good forever. Then they talk how great love is for pages and discuss how it helps people to be good. In the end, people will find that love is forever and beautiful- not beautiful in appearance. This also applies to Socrates' view in philosophy: love won't change in nature even thought for someone, it might disappear (theory of form).

 At the end, Alcibiades rushes in drunkly. He is a controversy of Socrates' view of love because he is more interested in physical relationship. He describes his relationship with Socrates like "father or brother". He does not like it. Socrates also ignores Charmides and Euthydemus and they find that Socrates is actually the "darling". 

The ending is very interesting, I think, because Socrates, the only one who promotes spiritual love, leaves alone undrunk.

Aristophanes and his desire for wholeness

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I would like to focus my attention for this post on the speech that Aristophanes gives following his case of hiccups.  I found this speech very persuasive for several reasons: Aristophanes gives examples of why human-beings have such heightened sexual desires and why these desires may not be viewed as something completely negative in a sexual connotation.

To begin, Aristophanes stated that there used to be three types of human-beings: male, female, and a combination of both (meaning they had both sets of genitals).  From this, Aristophanes continued, these humans "had terrible strength and power, as well as grand ambitions, and they attacked the gods". (190c).  So, Zeus decided to cut the humans in half hoping to end their indecent and outrageous behavior.  The result that came from this can be viewed through our beliefs of what many believe "true love" should consist of: each half longed for their other half.  But, the issue I am attempting to get to does not derive from this.  I am focused mainly upon what Aristophanes says about men who were derived from the men when they were cut in half, "While they are boys, since they are a slice of the male, they are fond of men and enjoy lying with men...  Anyone who says they are shameless is mistaken, for they do this, not from shamelessness, but from courage, manliness, and masculinity, welcoming what is like themselves.  There is definite proof of this:  Only men of this sort are completely successful in the affairs of the city".  (192a-b).

I bring this text to a halt here, for I have many questions stemming from this.  Is Aristophanes attempting to play towards the young crowd at the dinner, hoping for gratification?  Or is there a more hidden theme that comes from this?  Do these men, the majority who do have status in the affairs of politics, condone this tradition because they want continued power in the nature of politics? 

If these men truly identify social success with sexual fancies with young men, why is Socrates found in this crowd?  Does Socrates (maybe) have some underlying desire to expand his status through his persuasiveness of speech, just as Aristophanes is doing?

Any ideas?  

test tube relationships and literal chemistry

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in 189-193 Aristophanes speaks of finding a partner and finding love as if it is a strictly logical and chemical equation. He talks about how we are attracted to our "other half". He speaks about how if we are attracted to men and we are woman then we used to be part of an androgynous being and if we are attracted to the same sex then we used to be a part of a man or a woman as a whole. Aristophanes also brings up the fact that we have a constant desire for wholeness and are solely attracted to the chemical makeup of our lovers.

He says, "And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself, whether he be a lover of youth or a lover of another sort, the pair are lost in an amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and one will not be out of the other's sight, as I may say, even for a moment: these are the people who pass their whole lives together; yet they could not explain what they desire of one another."

Aristophanes talks about how we are attracted to those who complete us. In the sense of the Symposium, we are supposedly attracted to those who literally complete our chemical makeup, aka those who used to be our other half or fit the characteristics of the person who used to make us whole. This goes along with the belief that we are attracted to those who are opposites of us, because they have characteristics that we don't and therefore up our chances of having healthy offspring.

Does personality not matter? Does Aristophanes really believe that our soulmates are those who we are strictly chemically compatable with us? I just feel like so much of philosophy is based on picking at one's soul and romance in philosophy is so based on interpersonal thoughts and reflection of feelings, that it shocked me to read a speech that fought for love as a chemical equation as opposed to anything mental.

Love at the Movies

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As an avid film-goer, I couldn't help but think of Love in movies while reading about Love in the Phaedrus and The Symposium. Since we are technically on vacation, I thought it would be a nice time to take a slight break from Platonic Love and discuss our favorite Romantic Movies. Therefore, I have listed four of my personal favorite Love stories in movies:

WARNING: I tried to keep out any spoilers from the movies, but some potential spoilers may be present.

4. Tom (Joseph Gordon-Levitt) and Summer (Zooey Deschanel) in (500) Days of Summer (2009) - I think its fitting to start the list about Love with a movie that is almost an anti-Love story. Tom falls in love with Summer and over the course of the movie we watch as their relationship develops, becomes stagnant, and implodes. Tom never stops loving Summer, although she becomes bored with him and can't return that love. This is a film that everyone - especially guys - can relate to on a very real level. You become emotional invested in Tom's character, and through him you also fall in love with Summer, fall out of love, and feel that cruel hard sting of rejection and love lost. This is a chick-flick for guys and a tale of love that is, at times, brutally honest.

3. Damiel (Bruno Ganz) and Marion (Solveig Dommartin) in Wings of Desire (Der Himmel über Berlin - 1987) - This is my Film Snob movie pick. Wings of Desire was a German movie that premiered at the Cannes Film Festival. Damiel is an Angel who falls in love with the profoundly lonely Marion who is a beautiful trapeze artist at a local circus. The movie is a slow, thoughtful mediation of love that transcends the mortal and immortal. Damiel, a creature of pure empathy and understanding, watches over Marion throughout the movie, and decides to give up his own immortality in order to become human and experience love. The final meet face-to-face introduces one of the most artistically beautiful expressions of Love in which Marion talks directly into the camera, addressing Damiel and the audience directly. She's never met Damiel directly, and yet she feels a connection to him that is beyond anything that she has ever felt to anyone on earth. This is a story of Love that transcends even human existence. A gripping, if somewhat methodical, movie that is one of my favorites of all times.

 

2. Buttercup (Robin Wright) and Westley (Cary Elwes) in The Princess Bride (1987) - This is a story of young Love, Love lost, Love found again to only be kidnapped by an evil King and a six fingered man, and a happy ending all around. It's a glorious 1980s Fairy Tale. This film hits all the clichés of fairy tale movies - love at first sight, true love, doing anything for love - without it coming off as sappy and pretentious. Rather it engages such fairy tale topics with a biting wit and sense of humor while still making the romance believable. And come on - you've totally said "As you wish" at least once while dating, whether they got the reference or not. This movie made me fall in love with fairy tale romances all over again.

1. Rick (Humphrey Bogart) and Ilsa (Ingrid Bergman) in Casablanca (1942) - I didn't want to pick the obvious choice, but I couldn't help it. Besides being one of the greatest movies ever made, it features a complicated love story between Rick and Ilsa that takes place from Nazi-occupied Paris, France to Casablanca. First Ilsa has to leave Rick even though she loves him, breaking his heart in the process. Ilsa reappears with her husband on the run from the Nazis and in desperate need of Rick's help in eluding them. Drama, romantic tension, Nazis, on-screen chemistry, and some of the most memorable movie quotes of all time ("Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine..." and "Here's looking at you kid.") and that song "As Time Goes By," which will stay in your head long after the movie ends. You'll marvel at Bogart, who has to be the coolest actor of all time, and you'll fall in love with Bergman, from those sad dark eyes to that hot Swedish accent. Any Romantic movie list is incomplete without this marvel in Film History.

What is your favorite Romances in Film? What is your least favorite? And what can Hollywood's portrayal of Love inform our opinion on Platonic Love in the dialogues we are reading?

Digital Dialogue 19: Politics After Rights

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Adriel Trott, Assistant Professor of Philosophy at the University of Texas, Pan American joins me for episode 19 of the Digital Dialogue. Adriel received her PhD in Philosophy from Villanova University in 2008 with a dissertation entitled "The Challenge of Physis: Reconciling Nature and Reason in Aristotle's Politics."

Her areas of specialization are Ancient Greek Thought and Social and Political Philosophy. Her work is informed by the continental and feminist traditions. She has come to the Digital Dialogue to talk about the recent paper she delivered at SPEP entitled: "The Wrongs of Rights: The Onto-Political Logic of Human Rights from Arendt to Badiou."

Digital Dialogue 19 with Adriel Trott: Politics After Rights

Socrates the Champ

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"With Socrates, gentlemen, my ploy won't succeed. No matter how much anyone orders him to drink, he drinks it and still never gets drunk..." (214a)

"Moreover, when there were feasts, he was the only one who really enjoyed them, and although he never wanted to drink, when he was compelled to so he outlasted everyone -- and what is most amazing of all, nobody has ever seen Socrates drunk!"
(220a)

Has anyone else noticed that as the dialogue goes on and other characters get more and more intoxicated, Socrates seems unaffected by the wine?

What reason would Plato have to make Socrates such a tank, to put it bluntly? Is it symbolic? Perhaps being impervious to alcohol symbolizes being impervious to something else...?

What do you all think? It's a bit disappointing, no? While Alcibiades' drunken antics are entertaining, I'd like to see Socrates with a bit of a buzz going as well.

And I tried to get a pretty picture for this post, this is the best I could come up with:

socrates3.jpg

I hope everyone has a good thanksgiving as well!

Socratic Eye for the Philosopher Guy

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As Apollodorus recounts the symposium to the companion, it starts out with Aristodemus describing Socrates looking beautiful (174b) : 

"He said he met Socrates, who was coming from the baths and waring sandals, which he rarely did, and he asked Socrates where he was going looking so beautiful."

Socrates responds with

" To dinner at Agathon's... I stayed away from the victory feasts yesterday, because I was concerned about the crowd, but agreed to be there today. I'm dressed up this way so that beauty may approach beauty."

With this passage he displays his knowledge of the importance of appearance. This is  something that hasn't really been hit on heavily with this dialogue because inner beauty of  knowledge, wisdom and the pursuit of the good have all been underlying themes of Socrate's method. It appears to be contradictory to past notions where it seemed it didn't matter how aesthetically pleasing Socrates was, the only important aspect of him was how his oration skills performed. 

Going into further of why Socrates would have been "done up" I was further perplexed at the fact that most of the characters that he's going to meet at this party or festivity are people whom he has already had dialogue with, so first impressions had already been made. With his statement of beauty approaching beauty he reveals his self awareness of his normal attire, and that this is unsuited for this particular occasion. Does this mean he is trying to impress his colleagues? Or is this just Plato's way of foreshadowing what the speeches are goign to discuss later; love and the pursuit of what is beautiful

My opinion it is both. Its Plato's way of foreshadowing what the coming dialogue is about and a way of painting Socrates in a light that makes him more suited to talk of beauty when he is beautiful. As a counter argument this may coincide with the popular saying "when in Rome". It could be Socrates is dressed nicely as with the custom of the time and the type of occasion. This notion would project the certain cultural awareness that sometimes is seen absent from the "aloof" Socrates because he's seen as to not care how he appears to others, only how he sounds.

My question for further discussion is this: Is Socrates simply following custom and bringing fine linens to an occasion or does he have other underlying objectives in mind? 

Gorgias and Socrates: The Feast of Friendship

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Some commentators have stressed that the first words of the Gorgias are crucial for understanding the dramatic framing of the dialogue: polemon kai machen (a war and a battle). Of course, this points out the fact that philosophy and rhetoric have conceived themselves as rivals that pursue antagonistic aims. To interpret those first words under the light of a battle that is going to take place between the rhetorician and the philosopher is not absurd. But still, it seems to me that Socrates' allusion to his being late for a feast shall not be interpreted in an ironical way, but rather as an acknowledgment that there is something to share and learn from Gorgias.

After Socrates blames Chaerephon of his late arrival he immediately states: boulomai gar puthestai par autou, tis he dunamis ths techne tou andros (I want to find out from the man what is the function of his art. 447c1-3). If we take this statement seriously then there is something that Socrates desires from Gorgias. I take this desire to be either the concern of the philosopher to come into terms with some type of rhetorician, that is, the recognition that philosophy lacks something which rhetoric has, or that this dichotomy should be overcome in the name of a philosophical rhetoric. If it is the former, then the question is in what sense could rhetoric be helpful for the philosophical activity in the terms that Socrates understands it. Therefore I think that the framing of the dialogue has to be understood not only as a confrontation between two enemies in a war, but also as a feast share by friends that need each other. We have inevitably to ask the following question: Would real philosophers "naturally reject rhetoric for dialectics?"(Doyle 2006)

It's important to remember that the Gorgias is a dialogue posterior to the Protagoras -in the dramatic temporal life of Socrates. This is crucial because we can only understand the outcome of the Protagoras by relating it to the Gorgias. The reason why I say this is because I think Socrates has, in certain degree, changed his perspective regarding certain rhetoricians. The agonistic conversation that Socrates had with Protagoras is transformed by a peaceful and harmonious conversation between he and Gorgias. If we conceive rhetoric in a non-technical and wider sense, then we can sustain that rhetoric has a motivational component that allows somebody to move another toward a certain direction, without forcing her. In other words rhetoric opens the space to be receptive to the claims of others, it "opens the capacity to be moved by the other as a result of the persuasive appeal"(Colapietro 1988, 157).

Andrew Stauffer in his book The Unity of Plato's Gorgias. Rhetoric, Justice and the Philosophic Life argues that the implicit analogy that Socrates poses at the beginning of the dialogue between rhetoric and weaving clothes, as well as that of rhetoric and music (449d1-5), reveal something essential to rhetoric: "[it] resembles an art that provides protection through the creation of cloaks and an art that sways men's passions than it does an art that clarify the path to true health" (Stauffer 2006, 21). This shows the tension that appears within rhetoric, on one hand, conceals something by protecting it, while on the other, moves us towards something else. In short, with the rhetorical art we are concealed and swayed, protecting us and at the same time giving ourselves to the other. Yet the fundamental thing here is that rhetoric cannot clarify the path to true health, that is, rhetoric cannot clarify the path towards the good. Nevertheless, it can move us toward one path or the other. If Socrates is trying to turn individual souls toward the good and if, as Ryan Pollock stated in his post couple of months ago, "those who practice virtue, whatever this would ultimately mean, cannot in advance of their undertaking have a precise conception of their final goal" (Pollock), then rhetoric becomes crucial for the practice of dialogue. Without a robust conception of the good and a determinate conception of what it would mean to turn individuals toward the good, rhetoric becomes fundamental. It allows that the people that engage in a dialogue are open to be moved by the other, are open to sway their passions in the direction that the other suggests, in other words, allow themselves to hear the music of other's utterances but without giving away their cloak that protects them from blind sway of their passions. It seems to me that when Gorgias tells the anecdote of the one time that he went with his brother to the sick person that was not willing to take his medication, and then Gorgias declares: "the doctor being unable to persuade him, I persuade him, by no other art than rhetoric" (456b4-5); the sick person was able to be receptive to the other, that is to say, he was open to be moved by the words of the other. It was the rhetorician who was able to move the sick person, not the doctor that had the knowledge of his illness. As I said in class, this kind of interplay between rhetoric and dialogue is crucial for the exercise of the true political art, an art that aims to turn individuals towards the good, by being also open to be moved by the other. In short, this interplay can be conceived as overcoming the traditional prejudice of separating with an axe, using Peirce's metaphor, philosophy and rhetoric as two unrelated activities.

Perhaps the war and battle that was referred to at the beginning of the dialogue is more an anticipation of what would be the conversation between Socrates and Callicles. I think this is why Callicles was the one that expressed those words, and not Gorgias. While Socrates really wanted something from Gorgias, maybe he knew that a feast was waiting for him, a feast that was going to be shared with a future friend, a friend from whom he would learn something important for his philosophical practice. It seems to me that the dialogue is not only about battle and war, but also about friendship, alliance, and community between two old enemies that might become future friends. Philosophy and Rhetoric have to come into terms; the alliance between the two can intensify both activities, and thus open new possibilities of meaning of what is the philosophical life.

Works Cited
  • Colapietro, Vincent. "Human Agency: The Habits of our Being." The Southern Journal of Philosophy XXVI, no. 2 (1988): 153-168.
  • Doyle, James. "On the First Eight Lines of Plato's Gorgias." The Classical Quarterly 56, no. 2 (December 2006): 599-602.
  • Plato. Gorgias. Great Britain: Loeb Classic Library, 1996.
  • Stauffer, Andrew. The Unity of Plato's Gorgias. Rhetoric, Justice and the Philosophical Life. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2006.

Perspectives

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In continuing another philosophical conversation with my roommate, we began talking about perspectives. Every person in the world is raised in a different environment, having different embarrassing adolescent moments, family life, skills, hobbies, etc.  We become a product of the triumphs and failures that we experience throughout our lives.  It seems fascinating to us that we all can participate in a seemingly similar world (i.e. 9-5 jobs, getting married, raising a family). Obviously, there are instances where different perspectives on life can lead to a harmonious existence, and other types where they can cause epic disasters. 

Being a political science major, I attempted to relate this idea to something that is going on in the world currently. One example that comes to mind is the situation in Zimbabwe. Mugabe, the current (co-)leader there, has displaced thousands of people in order to give larger amounts of land to more elite natives, by forcibly removing the poor. This has caused severe inflation, and the inability to produce any exports because the poor have no land to settle and cultivate upon.

As Schuyler had pointed out, in the Symposium, Phaedrus believes that "if a man who loves someone is discovered doing something shameful or failing through cowardice to defend himself against some shame, he would not be as distressed at being seen in such circumstances by anyone, not his father, his companions, nor anyone else, as he would be at being seen by his darling.... He likewise is thoroughly ashamed before his lovers should he be observed engaging in something shameful." He then continues to say that " a city or an army composed of lovers and their darlings... there could be no better way of organizing their city, since they would abstain from everything shameful and would be jealous of their honor in front of each other." (178d-e)

Would Mugabe's behavior be different if he had a lover that he did not want to appear shameful towards? Turns out, Mugabe is actually married, and both seem to benefit from his practice of "stealing from the poor to give to the rich".  In his perspective, as well as that of his wife, and of the elite that are gaining from this, I would imagine that Mugabe does not appear to be doing a shameful thing. Meanwhile, the impoverished cannot possibly feel the same way. 

So this may seem like a lot of random thoughts, but basically what I am asking is this: Who is to say that one is acting honorably in front of their lover? Is it the lover his/herself? Is it society?  Also, how can one definitively say that a society is "succeeding", as Phaedrus said? 

I am tempted to believe that this all comes down to one answer- perspectives.

Bertrand Russell and Plato: The Misreading of Platonic Texts in "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish."

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I like Bertrand Russell. I enjoy his critiques of religion, superstitions, and governments. Even more so, I enjoy his essay An Outline to Intellectual Rubbish: an essay depicting the history of superstitions corrupting and corrosive influence on society, governments, individuals, and philosophy. Here's a link to an online edition of the essay, http://www.solstice.us/russell/intellectual_rubbish.html .

The issue that I take with Russell is his portrayal of several philosophers and philosophies; a portrayal that, ultimately, adds up to a straw-man argument and fails to stand up under any sort of real reading. Of course, at this point in time, I could go on about the failures in his reading of Spinoza, as I am well versed in his philosophy, but instead I want to focus on the occasions that he mentions Plato. Here's the exerts in which he mentions Plato:

1: "Aristotle and Plato considered Greeks so innately superior to barbarians that slavery is justified so long as the master is Greek and the slave barbarian."

2: "Infanticide, which might seem contrary to human nature, was almost universal before the rise of Christianity, and is recommended by Plato to prevent over-population."

3: "There is no nonsense so arrant that it cannot be made the creed of the vast majority by adequate governmental action. Plato intended his Republic to be founded on a myth which he admitted to be absurd, but he was rightly confident that the populace could be induced to believe it."

4: "You may find your colored help making some remark that comes straight out of Plato-not the parts of Plato that scholars quote, but the parts where he utters obvious nonsense, such as that men who do not pursue wisdom in this life will be born again as women. Commentators on great philosophers always politely ignore their silly remarks."

5: "Plato thinks it a grave objection to the drama that the playwright has to imitate women in creating his female roles."

6: "Magic, however, was a crude way of avoiding terrors, and, moreover, not a very effective way, for wicked magicians might always prove stronger than good ones. In the fifteenth, sixteenth, and seventeenth centuries, dread of witches and sorcerers led to the burning of hundreds of thousands convicted of these crimes. But newer beliefs, particularly as to the future life, sought more effective ways of combating fear. Socrates on the day of his death (if Plato is to be believed) expressed the conviction that in the next world he would live in the company of the gods and heroes, and surrounded by just spirits who would never object to his endless argumentation. Plato, in his "Republic," laid it down that cheerful views of the next world must be enforced by the State, not because they were true, but to make soldiers more willing to die in battle. He would have none of the traditional myths about Hades, because they represented the spirits of the dead as unhappy."

Now, aside from the obvious racism involved in statement 4, there are many issues to be had there. First, there is a distinctive lack of citation within the text, so it's impossible to find exactly Russell is referring to. This makes it nearly impossible to properly critique this work, as he fails to account for the location of the remarks that he speaks of, making it very difficult to check his references. He does the same thing with Spinoza, though I am lucky enough to be well-versed in Spinoza's texts, so I generally know what he is most likely referring to, and can refute his readings. 

Secondly, in statement 4 he claims that Plato's statements on women are silly remarks, yet he doesn't seem to be nearly as fair towards any of the other statements that he speaks of. He fails to consider that it is possible that he is misreading Plato, and that the ideas that he refers to for the other 5 points are also silly, and because he doesn't give us citations, it makes it difficult to check him on this.

There is much more to refute and dispute here, but I will leave it for the time being, to see what others think of these statements, and the essay as a whole. 

A Quick Update on the End of the Year Podcast

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I just want to remind everyone who's interested in the podcast that we are currently taking a poll to see what times fit the best for the most people. Professor Long has set up this site to help facilitate this process: http://www.doodle.com/3bxpy77s9buncv4g

Right now it looks like December 9th at 11:00 AM-1:00PM is the best fit so far, but please put in your available times if you wish to do the podcast. The list of possible discussion points are as follows:

1. Pursuit of the Good - The swan, effect on the soul, what is it?

2. The Nature of dialogue -- Agonistic (Protagorus, Gorgias) vs. Harmonic (Phaedrus)

3. Gorgias -- Rhetoric in pursuit of the Good, Callicles' leaky jars

4. Protagorus -- Can ethics be taught?

5. Do the ends justify the means?

6. The Soul -- The Chariot Allegory, punishment as a means of cleansing one's soul, its relationship with "the good"

7. Erotic Love and the role of the lover in Phadreus

8. Piety -- the role it plays in informing one's soul

9. Socrates' use of story and metaphor in Gorgias and Phaedrus.

If you have any additional questions or concerns feel free to shoot out an email to me at cjy5020@psu.edu

Update: Professor Long has locked in the December 9th 11:00 AM -1:00PM time slot for the podcast. This is the last call for anyone interested in the podcast to vote at  http://www.doodle.com/3bxpy77s9buncv4g  

The Lover and the Darling

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While reading all of these speeches concerning love, I noticed there is an ongoing discussion of lovers and the darling. In the Symposium, Pausanias's speech reiterated some of the ideas brought up in the Phaedrus, but he also brought to the forefront some of the questions I had been having. Why is there such a strict dichotomy between the beloved and the lover? Why is it that it is never an equal loving relationship?

Pausanias seems to attribute "custom".

"Our custom aims at testing well and properly whom to gratify and whom to avoid. For this reason, it encourages one to pursue and the other to flee, setting up a sort of contest and putting to the test which of the two kinds the lover and the beloved are," (184a).

While this seems to approach my questions, it merely poses more. Why are loving relationships characterized by a chase? Why is it not a complementary relationship between two people?

Additionally, in characterization of those to love and be loved, I have serious questions about Pausanias's idea that heavenly love completely excludes the female sex. He quickly glosses over this attributing it to the fact that it is the weaker sex and less intelligent. While this may have been an understood cultural norm, does this suggest that the most powerful kinds of love that were known in their society strictly male - male? What then of the example of Alcestis and Orpheus?

A War on Love

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I am really intrigued by the exchange in the Symposium between Eryximachus and Aristophanes after Eryximachus' speech.  While exchanging roles--exchanging positions, from audience to speaker, from speaker to audience--they exchange strangely polemical lines. 

After Aristophanes jokes at Eryximachus' expense, Eryximachus says, "Aristophanes, my good man, watch what you're doing!  Though you're supposed to be giving a speech, you're making jokes, and forcing me to be on my guard against your speech in case you say something funny, when you could march out to speak in peace" (189a6-189b1, emphases mine). 

Aristophanes responds, "...Don't be on your guard against me; what I'm afraid of is not that I may say something funny (that would be a good trick and natural for my Muse), but rather that I may say something ridiculous" (189b3-5).

"Do you think you can make me a target and get away with it, Aristophanes?" asks Eryximachus (189b6-7, my emphasis).

As you might note by my emphases, the war imagery is explicit here, but its signficance is less apparent.  I find it interesting: first, that the topic of discussion here is love, and yet it is a polemics (an argumentative discussion, a war of words) on love; and second, that the rules of discussion seem to be so innately oriented around war metaphors.  Even in jest, Eryximachus must be on his guard, for even the most pleasant of exchanges, in this case, joking, hides the potential for violence.

What to say about this war on love?  A more general question: Does every discussion hold the potential for war?  Is every a discussion a polemics-in-disguise?  Perhaps a question to get us started on the latter: Does every speaker/interlocutor feel threatened (like the object of attack) when another participant compromises his/her position, or jokes at his/her expense, however lightheartedly? 

 

Circular loving...awkward.

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When doing the reading for tomorrow's class, I was puzzled by the end result of Pausanias' speech at 185b.The speech discusses the idea that "loving and Love are not in every case noble and deserving of praise, but the loving that points us in a noble direction is" (181a) before ending with this idea:

"This youth has demonstrated for his part that he would eagerly do anything at any for the sake of virtue and in order to become a better person, and that is the noblest and most beautiful thing of all. Thus, to gratify someone for the sake of virtue is entirely noble. This is the Love of the heavenly goddess, and he is heavenly and of much worth, both in public and in private matters. For he compels both the lover and himself and his beloved to care deeply about virtue. All other Loves are connected with the other goddess, the common one. "

So, Pausanias is saying that the only good type of Love is the one that brings you towards a virtuous end. Does this mean that according to his theory, the only real Love that exists is a selfish one? If this is so, isn't that circular- virtue is achieved out of acts towards others, which actually benefit the self. This is a philosophical theory, but I can't remember to whom it belongs. Thoughts?

What do we learn from Moderation?

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As I have been reading through The Symposium, I came across a passage that caught my attention.  From this passage, I believe there are several different topics that may arise from this; mainly, I wish to focus upon human desires.  As I believe we are all aware, Socrates is an advocate of moderation, temperance, and self-control.  Certainly, there are times when these impulses are subdued, possibly when that person approaches the situation with generous intentions and a clear conscious of what is good.  What I wish to focus on, though, is what we truly gain from restraining ourselves from these precarious situations.  I wish to use the conversation about drinking in The Symposium as the topic of my post.

"Well now, gentleman," Pausanias said, "what will be the most moderate way for us to drink?  I can tell you that I myself am in quite dreadful condition from yesterday's drinking, and I need some relief.  I suspect most of you do, too.  You were present yesterday.  So, let's look for a way to drink as moderately as possible."...

"Then, it seems it would be a bit of luck from Hermes," Eryximachus continued, "for me, Aristophanes, Phaedrus, and the others, if you hardiest drinkers would stop now, since we always fall short by comparison.  Socrates I exempt from the account; he'll be satisfied either way, and it will be alright with him whatever we do... I probably will provoke less displeasure when I tell you the truth about the nature of intoxication.  I believe it has become clear from medical practice that intoxication is a harmful thing for human beings..."
(Symposium, 176a- 176d).

Why I bring this matter up is because it has a direct correlation with how we carry ourselves as students.  I'm sure everyone knows that Penn State is the #1 party school in the nation; The Collegian ran an article about how student's blood alcohol content (BAC) has been on the rise when they are admitted into the hospital.  Whatever you may take from this, it seems fairly obvious to me: we are not a society who bases itself on moderation.  Because of this, it may be viewed that the philosophy of Callicles (the Leaky Jar Analogy) has become a dominant force in our time.  As we can see, Pausanias and the fellow men are unable to drink because of how terrible they feel from the previous day.  If they are drinking in a moderate way, should they have a hangover?  Does moderation rely upon the impulses of indulging for a person to learn what is truly moderate - in a good sense?

So, I leave to question, why is this?  Is it that our human desires are so powerful and self-gratification is that great?  Is it because we are spoiled and have many objects readily available whenever one wants?  Any other ideas?

 

Eryximachus

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Since we have a few discussions going on with Pausanias' speech I figure it is only fair to put Eryximachus' idea of love to the test as well, perhaps get a few points to discuss on Thursday -

Eryximachus, at least by my reading, takes an extremely biological view of love. Love, to him, is much like a basic need, something that we need to have to be healthy. He encourages people to be temperate in their love and take things only in moderation, trying to find a harmony between them.

While I am normally one that is all for doing things in moderation and not taking things to extremes, this doesn't settle well with me. He takes a view that fits what he does perfectly; he is a man of medicine, and (it seems to me) sees Love as some sort of basic need, something that only needs to be fulfilled when it is depleted.
 
"In sum, the medicinal art is a knowledge of the activities of Love in the body in terms of filling it up and emptying it out." (186d)

I feel like this is terribly reductionist to the nature of Love, by boiling it down to the 'mechanical properties' of what it does for oneself. If you are looking for love to satisfy yourself, as if you were going out to a restaurant to nourish your need to eat, how can we really say you are being passionate about it? Is passion not a desperately important part of what we think of as Love?* While there is obviously a sort of passion that is bad (the kind that overtakes you), the sort that seems good (one that helps you excel) isn't exactly temperate.

Thoughts on this? Am I not giving the poor doctor enough credit? 


* - A less rhetorical question: Should it be?


"I wish I were that glove upon her hand..."

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We have begun the reading for our final dialogue in Phil 200: Plato's Symposium. Having just concluded a dialogue that spoke about the nature of love (the Phaedrus), we now see a similar look at the beauty and greatness of love. Furthermore, the nature of love surfaces once again as Apollodorus recounts the speeches praising love that were told to him by Arisodemus.

Erycimachus observes that "isn't it terrible that hymns in honor of each of the other gods have been written by the poets, but none of the many poets that have existed has ever composed a single poem or hymn of praise for Love, who is such a great and ancient god?[.....] On the contrary, this great god has been ignored!" (177a-177c).

However, if we reflect on our society today, would you all agree that Love and praise for it has been ignored? Like Erycimachus says, on the contrary, I think Love has NOT been ignored. Today, there are so many songs, books, films, magazine articles, and even educational classes that are about Love (love with a capital 'L' as we know it). In fact, admiration and pity for love is voiced so much in our culture that I think it has turned into an icon, so to speak, with no meaning behind it anymore because it is so overused. Even in everyday language, when we greet or bid farewell to one, many of us, I have noticed, say 'I love you," for example, without truly meaning it. It is more of a phrase that has become a habit of saying. And on the radio, there are an overwhelming amount of songs "in the name of love," that it's almost pitiful. Our culture is so tied to the concept of love that we further lose ourselves in being able to truly grasp what Love is - we may just be in love with the idea of being in love.

In our last couple of classes we have been trying to understand what the nature of love is as both the Phaedrus and the Symposium inevitably raise this question. To me, personally, love is more than what binds two lovers together. Love can encompass many things, and a song I know, ironically, voices it well. It is a Greek song titled "Αγαπη Ειναι," that is, "Love Is." Here is my translation of the song:

Love is to cry and to laugh
Love is, my friend, love you should spread
And whenenver you can, others you should help
And all those who helped you forget them never.
Love is...
Grandma's food
And that flavor of the village that you will always carry.
Love is...
A divine night
And nine months after a baby to fill with kisses
Love is life itself, only him that respects it will come to understand that.
Love one feels who can forgive
Love is truth and truth is need
Don't leave her [love], believe in something
She is everywhere and on her own she will come, love is:

Faith and belief together, it is to live life for every moment,
Love is....
The light that the sky gives
Love is a god.

Love is a sunny day, happiness in the air.
It is my eyes that look on wanting to be the best for you,
Love is to give blood because in the end you may need it too,
Someone of yours, or maybe even me.
Love is, can happen to anyone.
It is the caress and the hug of a mom, only she will love whatever you do, and wherever you go.
It is dad's advice to understand the mistake from right.
.......
Love is a song like this where I mean what I say,
Love is to do that which is simple that will bring a smile to another's face.
.....

(The song goes on...Here is the link to the song on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnAovInMNtQ)

So, to everyone out there, what is the nature of love for you?

Digital Dialogue 18: Political Unconscious

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Noëlle McAfee, Research Professor at the Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution at George Mason University, joins me for episode 18 of the Digital Dialogue which is another special SPEP edition. 

Noëlle has numerous publications in the area of democratic political theory, social/political philosophy, feminist theory and American pragmatism including three books, Habermas, Kristeva, and Citizenship by Cornell University Press, 2000, Julia Kristeva, publish by Routledge in 2003, and a text that Shannon Sullivan and I discussed in episode 8 of the Digital Dialogue entitled Democracy and the Political Unconsious. She is here today to talk further about her book and to explore the transformative possibilities digital media opens for politics.

This year at SPEP, there was an excellent book panel on Noëlle's book in which Shannon Sullivan, of Penn State University and Robyn Marasco, of Hunter College, commented and Noëlle responded. A number of issues that grow out of that conversation frame some of our discussion on this episode of the Digital Dialogue.


Digital Dialogue 18 with Noëlle McAfee: Political Unconscious


Noble Love vs. Shameful Love

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At the beginning of The Symposium Pausanias is the first person to speak. In his speech Pausanias distinguishes between two types of love: 'heavenly' Aphrodite and 'common' Aphrodite. He explains the difference between the two below (180e-181e):

 "The Love that accompanies the common Aphrodite is truly common and acts in an opportunistic manner. This is the one whom ordinary human beings love. In the first place, such people love women no less than boys, and they love those they love for their bodies rather than their souls. So, they love the most unintelligent people they can, because they are concerned only about achieving their goal and do not care whether it is done in a noble and beautiful manner...this Love comes from the younger rather than the older goddess, the one who in their origins shares in both female and male."

"The Love that accompanies the heavenly Aphrodite, first of all, does not share in the female, but only in the male. - this is love for young boys. Since this Aphrodite is older, she does not participate in outrageous behavior. Those who are inspired by this Love are oriented toward the male, cherishing what is by nature stronger and more intelligent. Anyone would recognize those who are motivated by this love in a pure way...they don't fall in love with boys until they begin to show some intelligence...such lovers are not going to be deceivers, taking on someone when he lacks understanding because of his youth and then contemptuously abandoning him later to run off after someone else."

After reading these two passages, three things become abundantly clear:

1. Ancient Greek men loved pubescent boys

2. These dialogues are abhorrently sexist

3. The difference between noble and shameful Love

The point I wish to discuss in case number three (although the irony must be recognized in Pausanias making an appeal to the Greek Goddess of Love Aphrodite while then calling women "most unintelligent"). Pausanias distinguishes the two types of Love: shameful and noble. The shameful kind is that of the superficial and sexual gratification, while the nobler is one of a deep companionship based upon the intelligence of your partner and not only motivated by a sexual desire but a stronger soulful desire.

This leads us to apply these definitions to our contemporary society. Popular culture, especially our forms of entertainment such as television, music, and movies seem completely obsessed with Love. When was the last time you heard a song that wasn't about love in some way? Or the last time you watched a television show or movie without a romantic plotline or some sort of romantic interest? All of these mediums seem to want to portray the noble type of Love. However, they tend to fail miserably and instead present the superficial variety that is so loathed in Socratic texts. It's an interesting dynamic that is presented to us by popular culture, and a contradiction worth exploring. What effect do these two elements have in our own lives? Is this contradiction leading to a society that is unable to tell the difference between the two? And is it possible to have it both ways, or are they necessarily mutually exclusive, as indicated by Pausanias?

Love and Shame

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While reading Symposium tonight, I came across a passage that piqued my interest. During Phaedrus' speech on the nature of love, he suggests that a man who commits a shameful act would be upset the most if the misdeed was witnessed by his lover rather than his friends or family. Phaedrus goes on to theorize that there could be no better way to organize a city or army than for it to be comprised entirely of lovers because then each person would be afraid of doing wrong for fear of judgment by their lover. Just recently in my Ancient Greek History class we learned about the Theban Sacred Band, a group made up of 150 pairs of male lovers. The band played crucial rules in several important battles and once defeated a Spartan force three times its size and was thought to be invincible for almost 40 years until its eventual defeat at the hands of Alexander the Great. I looked the group up on Wikipedia and found that it was formed by the Theban commander Gorgidas, who, according to Plutarch, got the idea from reading Symposium.
So now that that little history lesson is out of the way, I'd like to bring up a few points for some discussion.

If Phaedrus' claim is true, why are we most afraid of a lover finding out about something shameful we did? Honestly I think it takes a stronger bond of love to be willing to admit fault to someone you care deeply about and know that they will still accept you no matter what. Since Phaedrus seems to be extolling the relationship between lovers above all others, why does he think a lover is most vulnerable to the judgment of his significant other?

Phaedrus goes on to say that "only lovers are willing to die for someone else". I don't think Phaedrus places enough value on the love of family or even friends. While those types of love aren't romantic in nature, I think that they can be just as strong in many aspects. What mother wouldn't die for her children? What about the soldiers in our army, all of which are volunteers; they are willing to die for complete strangers. Is there some other kind of motive for self-sacrifice between non-lovers?

10th Weekly Round-up Podcast

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Weekly Round-up #10.m4a

Here's the 10th Weekly Round-up podcast in which we (Timothy Bair, Bhavya Kaushal, Sean Tabatcher) talk about the class discussions as well the the blog.

The soul of speeches

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After having read the whole Phaedrus, the passage I'm fond of the most is the one that explains the definition of the soul (245d).  It's somewhat confusingly written, but tries to state the essence of a soul, and also tends towards questions about existence. It first seems to relate the concepts of time, change and mortality. By saying that something is always changing, I take it that Socrates is pointing towards things that withstand through the passage of time, and are thereby obviously immortal. Time is a stretch of continued existence, and I think that change is a crucial part of it, because if nothing ever changed, the concepts of past and future wouldn't exist. The soul, Socrates says, is the thing that is always changing, and the change is caused from within the soul, rather than by something external. He calls the things that change due to external factors mortal. This implies that the existence of things is subject to their ability to adapt to time, and to keep changing. Since the immortal things cause themselves to change, they do not come into being from any origin, but in fact are origins in themselves. Socrates concludes that the existence of such an origin is imperative for anything to exist, since they cause everything else to change and exist. He also calls this origin indestructible because otherwise 'the entire universe and everything that comes into being would collapse into a static condition', by which I wonder if he means that everything would die? This explanation reminded me of the cosmological argument for the existence of god which (vaguely put) states that everything has a cause which makes it come into being, and since everything is causally related, there must be a necessary first cause that caused all the causes. And this cause is assumed to be god, which isn't caused by anything else.

The soul is therefore something eternal and something that changes from within. I felt that Socrates tried to stress this concept again while trying to describe what a good speech might be. He expresses his agitation towards bad writing in 274d via a parable involving Egyptian gods. It concludes that writing (letters) is something that would only provide people with reminders of the true knowledge but since it would be without further instruction, such memorized knowledge would not in fact make people wise. The deficit of writing I gathered from this is that it can't explain itself further or defend itself and therefore needs the assistance of what caused it to come about and to change--the writer. The kind of speeches that Socrates then suggests are good are the sorts that are 'accompanied by knowledge...can defend both themselves and the one who planted them (seeds) and are not barren but contain a seed from which others grow up in other abodes" (277a). This feels similar, to me, as to saying that the speech should have a soul so that it's sufficient by itself as a piece of knowledge, and doesn't require its causer (the writer) to defend it. Moreover, it shall be the cause for the betterment and happiness in other souls (the readers or listeners) and help them grow further, just as a seed evolves into a plant. Since such a speech would contain the true knowledge, it would be eternal, as if having a soul of its own...

Update: End of the Year Digital Dialogue Podcast

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For those interested in the End of the Year Wrap-up Extravaganza Digital Dialogue podcast, Professor Long has decided on December 7th at 1:00PM at the Rider Studio. The people who expressed interest are Jordan, Pam, Ed, Tony, Kit, Taylor, and Anthony. If you cannot make that time, please comment on a time that would be better suited for you and we'll see about scheduling changes. We would like to include as many people as possible. If I forgot someone or you just decided you'd like to join the podcast, please comment below as well.

And if anyone has any ideas to include from the original list of subjects, also comment. Seriously, comment away and don't be shy. The more input we have the better the podcast will be. The topics from the last post are:

1. Pursuit of the Good - The swan, effect on the soul, what is it?

2. The Nature of dialogue -- Agonistic (Protagorus, Gorgias) vs. Harmonic (Phaedrus)

3. Gorgias -- Rhetoric in pursuit of the Good, Callicles' leaky jars

4. Protagorus -- Can ethics be taught?

5. Do the ends justify the means?

6. The Soul -- The Chariot Allegory, punishment as a means of cleansing one's soul, its relationship with "the good"

7. Erotic Love and the role of the lover in Phadreus

8. Piety -- the role it plays in informing one's soul

9. Socrates' use of story and metaphor in Gorgias and Phaedrus.

If you have any additional questions or concerns feel free to shoot out an email to me at cjy5020@psu.edu

Update: From the comments I've received it seems that sometime between 2:30 and 3:00 on Monday, December 7 would be better. How does this fit?

And It seems that the topics of Piety, means/ends, and Socrates use of story and metaphor are trending to be popular topics, and from the last post we had a wide arrange of subjects that people seem to enjoy. There will be a prepared outline I'll send out well before December 7th on the topics once we decide on topics.

Update 2: Maybe this would be easier if everyone who is interested in doing the podcast post what times on monday and wednesday they are available, then we'll picj a time and day that fits into everyone's (or the majority's) schedule. Please comment below or email me.

Update 3: Professor long has established an online polling site to see what times work best for those interested. The link is http://www.doodle.com/3bxpy77s9buncv4g If you are interested in doing the podcast, please participate in the link. Thanks.

The Truth is for Sale

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As We have discussed from since the Protagoras, Socrates really seems intent on righting the many wrongs, as he them, in the Athenian school of thought. Specifically one passage in Phaedrus perked my ears to this notion (262C)

Then my friend, the person who doesn't know the truth and has gone chasing after opinions will provide a ridiculous and, so it seems, artless art of making speeches.


The "chasing after opinions" part really has me drawing upon areas in modern life today where persuasion is used to illicit a desired response from the speech maker. Some facets where we see speeches to elicit a specific emotion can be found in multitude of arenas but I would like to focus on one right now: Marketing/Sales. Socrates, in his dialogue with Phaedrus, describes how one can draw conclusions from certain facts by taking small steps to cover up deception here (262a)

S: So, if you move across to an opposite position by small steps, you're more likely to escape detection than if you make the transition by large steps.

P: Of coarse.

S: Then, the person who intends to deceive someone else, but not to be deceived himself, must have an accurate knowledge of the similarity and the dissimilarity of things.


From this we can gather two things. One, that to deceive someone about a certain matter, its best to know more about the subject that your talking about, than the person your deceiving. The other thing that can be gleaned from this is that slow alluding assumptions made during your argument mask your leap from normal conventional thought to the conclusion you want them to make. This helps deception to occur. Its really just hiding your motive with a lot of words.

To me, the people associated with marketing and selling products have read Socrates and read him well, unfortunately I think they don't really mind whether their endeavors have been artful or not. They know their audience. The marketing people surely are at the better end of an information gap. They have more knowledge about their product and product market than their consumers, and make long winded speeches (pitches) that slowly allude to a conclusion one would not have made at the beginning of the journey. Anther words, they convince you that you just had to buy those new (insert ticked item here) that you couldn't go another minute on this earth without.

This brings up in my head a charged question, but I'll ask it anyway. Can we say marketing and sales is an artless art, maybe not aligned with the question of "what is the good?"   

Socrates should've been the inventor of eHarmony

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Hey guys, this isn't much of a post, but more of a general question.

In the beginning of the semester we discussed how Socrates was told by the Oracle at Delphi that he was the wisest man on earth. So, he goes around trying to prove his own ignorance, and thus by proving his ignorance, he proves his knowledge of his own ignorance, and the ignorance of everyone else.

BUT

At the end of 177d Socrates says, "I, who say I understand nothing other than the activities of love, will surely not protest, nor will Agathon and Pausanias, nor will Aristophanes, who spends all his time with Dionysus and Aphrodite, nor will any of the others I see here."

Now wait a minute, isn't this contradictory?

Thoughts, guys?

Digital Dialogue 17: Parmenides

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Rose Cherubin, Associate Professor of Philosophy at George Mason University, joins me and a special panel of colleagues from the Ancient Philosophy Society for a special SPEP edition of the Digital Dialogue. We gathered together in Arlington, VA to discuss the paper Rose Cherubin gave at the APS panel at SPEP entitled "Parmenides: Another Way."

Rose specializes in Ancient Greek Philosophy, particularly the thinking of Parmenides, and metaphysics. She has published numerous articles in Ancient Greek Philosophy and she is currently working on a book related to the thinking of Parmenides with the working title: Justice, Knowledge and Inquiry. My other two panelists are previous interlocutors on the Digital Dialogue, Sara Brill, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Fairfield University, who joined me for Digital Dialogue episode 13 on Psychology and Politics, and Jill Gordan, the Charles A. Dana Professor of Philosophy at Colby College, who joined me for Digital Dialogue episode 9 on Erotic Politics.

Digital Dialogue 17 with Rose Cherubin, Jill Gordon and Sara Brill: Parmenides

Subscribe to the Digital Dialogue through iTunesU.

Resources
  • Austin, Scott. Parmenides and the History of Dialectic. Las Vegas: Parmenides Publishing, 2007.
  • Cassin, Barbara. "Who's Afraid of the Sophists? Against Ethical Correctness." Trans. Charles T. Wolfe. Hypatia 15.4 (2000): 102-120. (Available online via JSTOR.)
  • Cherubin, Rose. "Legein, Noein, and To Eon in Parmenides."  Ancient Philosophy 21_ (2001): 277-303.
  • ________, "Alētheia from Poetry into Philosophy: Homer to Parmenides." In Logos and Muthos, edited by William Wians. Albany, NY: SUNY Press, 2009.
  • Hermann, Arnold. To Think Like God. Las Vegas: Parmenides Publishing, 2004.
  • Miller, Mitchell. "Ambiguity and Transport: Reflections on the Proem to Parmenides' Poem." Oxford Studies in Ancient Philosophy 30 (2006): 1-47.
  • Robbiano, Chiara. Becoming Being. International Pre-Platonic Studies 5. Sankt Augustin: Academia, 2006.
  • Tarán, Leonardo. Parmenides. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 1965.

Now what have you learned?

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In concluding our discussion on The Phaedrus, one of the topics we hoped to explore but didn't really have time to delve into was how we were supposed to interpret Phaedrus's growth, or lack thereof, throughout the text, so I'd like to open up this topic for discussion. In the beginning Socrates seemed to use Lysias's speech as well as his own two speeches to demonstrate to Phaedrus the danger of obsessing over a well-written or particularly persuasive speech and thus taking it as the truth. By presenting a speech Phaedrus praised highly and then revealing his true opinion by delivering a speech taking the opposite stance, Socrates reveals Phaedrus's inability to pass rational judgment upon an argument before accepting it as correct or true. After thinking and discussing critically with Phaedrus for the rest of the dialogue, it appears that one of Socrates' main goals was to teach his young friend to critically engage topics himself and come to his own conclusions rather than accept the first thing he hears. But is this goal achieved? On one hand, the text at line 276e seems to suggest through Phaedrus's words that he finally is engaging the discussion critically and expanding upon what Socrates has said:

 P: "You refer to a very noble kind of play, Socrates, in contrast to a worthless kind, that of the person who is able to play with speeches, telling tales about justice and the other things you mention."

Immediately following, however the exchange beginning at 277a4 seems to reveal quite the opposite:

S: Now that we've agreed about these matters, Phaedrus, we can decide about those others.

P: What are they?

S: We've gotten to this point because we wanted to know about the following: what we were going to make of the criticism of Lysias as a writer of speeches, and, with regard to speeches themselves, which were written in an artful manner and which not. It seems to me that what is artful and what is not has been made abundantly clear.

P: I thought so, but remind me again how it went."

If it had really also been made so abundantly clear to Phaedrus, would he actually have forgotten already? Or is it just that he is still relying on another to make the difficult and intelligent conclusions for him? It seems to me like this moment is Phaedrus's golden opportunity to demonstrate that he has actually gained something from this exchange and present an idea or conclusion from his own interpretations. Instead, Phaedrus is reduced to simple one line responses or questions aimed at gaining a response from Socrates, just as the other rhetors we have thus far encountered. I'm interested to see if you all agree or if there are different interpretations regarding Phaedrus's growth throughout the dialogue.

Long's PHIL200 course, Fall 2009

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Last week Professor McCoy posted a picture of her class at Boston College, so we thought it only appropriate to take a picture of our own and post it here on the blog too.

So, here we are after today's class, the last on Plato's Phaedrus.  Thursday we begin the Symposium.

PHIL200.jpg
From left to right, in the back row are: Olivia Raimonde, Sky Hippo, Anthony Zirpoli, Tony Arnold, Pam Dorian, John Koznecki, Anna Torres Cacoullos, Jack Kelly, Daniel Mininger, Drew Bullard, Christa Spinelli, Mike Yourchak, Taylor Ferber, Jingting Zhao, Bhavya Kaushal, Andrew Starks, Sean Tabatcher, Betty Walker and Joni Noggle.

From left to right, in the front row are: Ed Mily, Josh Testa, Tim Bair, Cody Yashinsky, Jordan Sanford, Christopher Long and Sam Borchers.

The Farmer Analogy

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Is there a difference in value of a work that is written as opposed to one that is orally expressed? Once an argument or articulation is written down on paper does it lose some of it's worth?


Socrates uses an analogy that relates serious farming (as opposed to farming for the sake of amusement) to dialectical expression (as opposed to written speeches, which are also merely for the sake of amusement):


Now, tell me this. Would a sensible farmer who had some seeds he cared about and who wanted to produce a crop plant them with serious intent in the heat of summer in gardens for Adonis and enjoy seeing them bloom beautifully in eight days? If he did such things at all, wouldn't he do them for the sake of amusement and at festivals? In those cases where he was serious, wouldn't he use the farmer's art and plant in suitable ground and prefer having what he has sown reach maturity in the eighth month?... Shall we say that the person who has a knowledge of what's just, beautiful, and good is less sensible about his seeds than the farmer?... Then, when he's serious he won't write them in ink, using a pen to sow speeches that are unable to defend themselves in discussion and unable to teach truth effectively... He'll sow his gardens for amusement, it seems, and will write, when he does write, to store up reminders for himself, and for all who follow the same track, against the forgetfulness that may come with old age. (276b-276d)


Socrates makes it clear that speeches which are written down cannot possibly attain as much value as oral ones because they cannot be "implanted" or understood by the reader nearly as well. He relates writing speeches to farming for "the sake of amusement and festivals" because he says the only purpose for one to write it down is for "reminding", because one who truly has knowledge of things like "goodness" and "justice" has no need to write them down.

I would like to disagree with Socrates.


I think that putting something in writing is ballsy and it exhibits knowledge just as well as oral speech does. I think that writing is just as capable of affecting the audience as dialect is. In fact, I think that one can show "seriousness" in writing even more so than in dialect. This is because someone has to make the effort to actually put down what they want to express rather than just simply saying it. When something is in writing, it is out there for multiple people or even for the whole world to see. Something you say can be heard by others for that instant, but when something is in writing it is out for the world and can rarely be taken back.


Socrates also relates writing to painting, in that the "[c]reations stand there as though they were alive, but if you ask them anything, they maintain a quite solemn silence... they always just continue to say the same thing... it isn't able to help or defend itself" (275 e). He complains about the value of these works and says that these forms of art are less purposeful perhaps because they are not directed towards a specific person for a specific reason, in order to teach or change them. Instead, they are spread and shared equally among everyone, people who have no true reason to see them. This is another reason I think writing is just as powerful as oral speech, BECAUSE it has no one to defend it; the creator puts it out there for the world regardless of the many various interpretations, hoping it will reach and change them. The writer is put in a position that is able to make them feel much more vulnerable than the speech giver.

 
I do not believe writing, like planting for "festivals", is purely for amusement. I believe it is very important, not only in building history but in changing the world and the people in it. Any art in written or frozen form is powerful.

Kalokagathia: Who is our "perfect" citizen?

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I'm currently taking Prof. Munn's History/CAMS 100 class, and like in this class, we are preparing for our final paper topics. After speaking with Prof. Munn on possible paper ideas, I decided to use what we have learned in PHIL 200 and apply that knowledge with what I've in this Ancient Greek history class. Thus, I thought it may be fun and worthwhile to share with my fellow Digital Dialogue bloggers the Greek ideal of kalokagathia.

We have realized in reading several Platonic texts thus far that the Greeks believed in the ideals of the beautiful and good, or kalos kagathos or kalokagathia, "beauty and nobility of soul." Surfacing in the fifth century, the Greek ideal of kalokagathia appears in the influence of Solon in the marriage of the beautiful and the good during his attempt to bring political stability, while Plato, particularly in Protagoras, also contributes to the development of this ideal.

In Plato's Protagoras, in his great speech the Sophist Protagoras talks about this attribute and claims that it is present in all human beings and it is in virtue of this kalokagathia that human beings can found cities and develop systems of justice. There is a  main difference between Socrates and Protagoras on the issue of the human capacity for justice, goodness-- in general "kalokagathia" lies in the role/degree of education (philosophy) that each thinker considers necessary to activate, make substantial this attribute or capacity. Both agree that kalokagathia (justice, goodness, etc.) is an essential component for being political, i.e., being a citizen and participating in affairs of the community in a significant way.

Protagoras, according to Plato, holds that a bit of technical training is all that is needed to make human beings political animals, and he claims to provide that training, as he defends in Protagoras. Socrates, on the other hand, believes that a huge overhauling of dead, dogmatic ideas that people have has to be undertaken by the philosophical elenchus which he undertakes with his interlocutors, and then people must be educated widely and deeply to be just, good, lovers of the beautiful and of virtue, i.e., to be kalokagathoi. So for Socrates becoming and being a political animal is a huge task, and philosophical "dialegein" is the only way to achieve that capability. In fact, we have seen that it is in Gorgias that Socrates claims that he is the only person who practices politics in Athens.

In thinking about the ideal of kalokagathia, would it seem fair to say that Plato may have believed that it is improved intelligence that will enable us to attain the ideal of kalos kagathos? Throughout the dialogues Socrates tries to bring out this improved intelligence in his dialectal method of dialogue, such as in his quest to discover the meaning of virtue. It would seem thus far that only in Protagoras in there some kind of satisfaction reached as there is a conclusion that virtue can be taught.
   
In fifth century Athens, being a citizen meant much more than it means today not least because it meant being a full time participator and decision-maker. In our society today, what would constitute the "truly good" being (man/woman)? That is, which ideals that we value today would be our equivalent of kalokagathia? Furthermore, is there such a person that exists today who embodies these ideals?

Rising above our compositions

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In the closing scene of the Phaedrus (278b-e) Socrates finally lays out the distinction between individuals who peruse the appearance of wisdom, and those who peruse wisdom. I have a feeling this distinction is Socrates' primary objection to the vocational sophists:

S: "...to all of them we are to say that if their compositions are based on knowledge of the truth, and they can defend or prove them, when they are put to the test, by spoken arguments, which leave their writings poor in comparison of them, then they are to be called, not only poets, orators, legislators, but are worth of a higher name, befitting the serious pursuit of their life."

These people Socrates labels as philosophers.

S: "And he who cannot rise above his own compilations and compositions, which he has been long patching and piecing, adding some and taking away some, may be justly called a poet or speech-maker or law-maker"

There seems to be an unspoken label here: Sophists.

It seems as though Socrates likens the ability to engage with (or relate to) another individual to the pursuit of the highest good. This seems to suggest that dialogue cannot be static. In other words, when you relate to another individual about knowledge of the truth you cannot be an 'objective' spectator. You need to get your hands dirty and be affected by the dialogue. The sophists attempt to avoid actual engagement; their "dialogues" are not genuine responses to questions but pre-composed answers. And Socrates seems to be suggesting that the "art" of dialogue is more important, and more difficult, than the "art" of composition.

My first thought when processing this text was dissertations. It's not enough that you wrote a dissertation, but you need to defend (or as Socrates would say "rise above your composition") your dissertation to a group of individuals. This personal event is something quite different from merely composing a paper. I wonder if the requirement for dissertations to be defended is influenced at all by Socrates' emphasis on personal interaction.

Is dialogue more difficult (or even more important) than mere composition? Is the ability to "rise above" written words a clear indicator of a philosophical mind?

Weekly Round Up #9

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Weekly Round Up 9.mp3

Olivia and Ed discuss the Memory vs. Intelligence, static vs. dynamic dialogue, and the growth of Pheadrus.

Sex and the Human Psyche

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What role does sex play in a relationship? Does sex act as threat which corrupts a relationship or rather as an agent which allows one to flourish? Socrates portrays exactly what occurs in the human mind and body (through the charioteer metaphor) in the occasion that a person sees their loved one: So, when the charioteer sees the vision of his beloved, his entire soul is warmed by the perception and filled with longing's tickling and prickling. The horse that is obedient to the charioteer, constrained now as always by a sense of what is respectable, restrains itself, not leaping upon the beloved; but the other no longer heeds the charioteer's whip and goad. It leaps forward powerfully, giving its yoke-mate and charioteer all kinds of trouble, and forces them to approach the darling and mention to him the delights of sexual activity. At the first the two indignantly resist being compelled to do terrible, unlawful things, but they finally give in to the unending harassment and go where they are being led, agreeing to do what is demanded. (254b) Unlike the "obedient" horse, which is always led by a sense of "respectability", the other, in contrast has an instinct to "leap forward powerfully" while provoking the loved one with the "delights of sexual activity". But why are the two even contrasted? Why does wanting sexual activity dwell from the disobedient part of the human mind and further, why is it disrespectful to the other person or to the relationship? In this passage which portrays the different realms of the human psyche, the realm in which sex is aroused and wanted is the "bad" one. I don't understand why constraining oneself and holding back from sex is a way to gain or maintain a healthy relationship between two lovers. I do understand that if two people do not TRULY love each other than yes, sex could be an agent which damages the relationship, and should be resisted as portrayed in Socrates' metaphor. However, in this particular case, I believe Socrates is talking about an event in which you encounter the person you are truly in love with. So, in that case, I do not believe this portrayal of the horses is right nor fair to the human species. Sex is one of the rare, essential pleasures of life. According to Freud, the three basic needs of humans are: water, warmth, and sex. Sex allows two people in love to connect and be united on a whole new level of being. It is a gift that can be celebrated and shared between these two "lovers", and I cannot see why it is portrayed as "terrible and unlawful". The reason I say this passage does not give the human race any justice is because it is as if we have to fight something that is only natural to us. I understand Socrates revolves his discussions around the central idea of reaching the "good", but we should not have to fight nature along the way of getting there.

Amish Understanding

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While reading the last part of the Phaedrus, I was looking for a connection with a lecture I attended last night, by Dr. Trudy Huntingdon. Dr. Huntingdon spent many years living with various Amish, Mennonite, and Hutterite communities in the United States and Canada, while studying their culture and methods of land conservation, to receive her doctorate.

In the lecture, she shared many different aspects of Amish culture, and explained to the audience what she had learned from her research. Her main message to the listeners was the idea of common misperceptions about the Amish community. So, I felt that it tied in perfectly with this passage from the text:

S: We've gotten to this point because we wanted to know about the following: what we were going to make of the criticisms of Lysias as a writer of speeches, and, with regard to speeches themselves, which were written in an artful manner and which not. It seems to me that what is artful and what is not has been made abundantly clear.

P: I thought so, but remind me again how it went.

S: Until one knows the truth about each of the topics one speaks or writes about and is able to define each in its own terms; and until after defining them, one knows how to cut them up again in accordance with their forms until one reaches what's indivisible; and until one comes to an understanding of the nature of the soul in the same way, discovering the form that fits each nature, and arranges and organizes one's speech accordingly, offering to a complex soul complex speeches that cover all the musical modes and simple speeches to a simple soul; only then will one be able, insofar as it's in accord with its nature, to deal with the race of speeches in an artful manner, either in connection with teaching or in connection with persuading - as the entire preceding discussion has reminded us. (277b-d)

So, from both Dr. Huntingdon's speech and the text of the Phaedrus, it's easy to draw the idea that one should not attempt to speak or write about something until it's been completely defined. Socrates then goes on to talk about the correct information to speak about depending upon the soul of the listener. Dr. Huntingdon also mentioned some information about cultural sensitivity. She had to conform to Amish ways of dress and living in order for to build their trust and be able to communicate with them. Only after certain proofs of intelligence or understanding, would certain women in the Amish community speak to her.   

The question that stems from this second parallel, however, is that of what complexity means. Do we take complexity to mean intelligence, and the ability to understand complex things, or do we take complexity to mean something altogether different? Have we already defined complexity and I missed the boat on that conversation?

McCoy's Philosophy Class at Boston College

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ClassMcCoy2.jpg

Playing and Knowledge (Playing with Knowledge)

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In PHIL 200 today, we talked about knowledge and its relation to writing and speaking.  For example, we asked the question several times whether the memorization implicit in the primacy of speech is identifiable with knowledge.

However, we also talked about play and its relation to knolwedge, and how the distinction between play and seriousness is not so strict with Socrates, e.g., the "very noble kind of play" that Socrates suggests near the end of the Phaedrus (276e1).  My question is: Is this the kind of "knowledge" Socrates and Plato would wish us to attain--a playful knowledge?  For instance, play is almost always a playing with, whether it be an object, another, or oneself.  Play could be seen as an interaction with proposed truths and ideals in an attempt to flesh them out: in that way it is not a definite object or article of knowledge.  Is play, being a trajectory and not an object, suggested by Socrates in his dialectical approach and his ironic procedure of fleshing out opposing viewpoints?  Indeed, play rarely has a goal--it is done most often for its own sake.  Is Plato, in his literary and dialogical approach, doing the same?  Is Plato hoping that, like his dialogue's namesake, Phaedrus, we will come to a certain mode of self-sufficiency (a good example of this being the exchange at 263c-d that Dr. Long highlighted in class) in engaging and playing with knowledge?

Plato sleeps in Rwanda

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Alright, guys, I was so moved (I'm generally moved by all speeches I hear, I don't really know why.) by this speaker that I went to see tonight that I really wanted to post about it and share it with everyone. I couldn't come up with a connection to Plato/Socrates until I did the reading for class. What perfect timing! Anyway, the speaker's name was Carl Wilkens. He was the only American to stay in Rwanda during the genocide of 1994, that still continues today.

Here's the blurb that was sent out over the philosophy list-serv:

'Carl Wilkens stayed.

The only American to choose to stay in Rwanda after the genocide began in April 1994, Carl Wilkens prevented the massacre of hundreds of children and many adults over the course of the genocide.

Featured in Frontline's Ghosts of Rwanda and The Few Who Stayed: Defying Genocide, an American Radio Works documentary, Wilkens' story reminds us of the profound connection between history and the moral choices we face each day.

His experience with the power of human relationships as the difference between life and death challenges us to explore our own biases against those we characterize as "OTHER."'

So, we could obviously connect this speech and what I heard to morality, but I actually focused on the happiness of his speech. It's ironic that we're talking about genocide, and I'm struck by the happiness of Carl Wilkens' and Socrates' remarks:

S: Then when he's serious, he won't write them in ink, using a pen to sow speeches that are unable to defend themselves in discussion and unable to teach the truth effectively.

P: That's not likely.

S: No, it isn't. He'll sow his gardens of letters for amusement, it seems, and will write, when he does write, to store up reminders for himself, and for all who follow the same track, against the forgetfulness that may come with old age, and he'll enjoy watching their tender shoots grow. While others resort to other kinds of play, refreshing themselves with drinking parties and whatever is related to these, this person, it seems, instead of indulging in these kinds of play, will engage in those I'm speaking of.

P: You refer to a very noble kind of play, Socrates, in contrast to a worthless kind, that of the person who is able to play with speeches, telling tales about justice and other things you mention.

S: So it is, Phaedrus my friend, but far more noble, I think, is the serious treatment of these subjects when someone uses the dialectical art and, selecting an appropriate soul, plants and sows in it speeches that are accompanied by knowledge, speeches that can defend both themselves and the one who planted them and that are not barren but contain a seed from which others grow up in other abodes, so that this process is rendered eternal and immortal. Such speeches make the person who possesses them as happy as a human being can be. (277a)

In the speech by Socrates, we are discussing the idea of taking speeches seriously, and the treatment of such a serious topic - what is mature, what is the correct way to handle the knowledge bestowed upon the bearer of it. If one correctly bestowed this knowledge upon others, he would become the happiest he can possibly be.

I felt this is a perfect tie with Carl Wilkens' speech. He witnessed the murders, bombings, and maiming of people in a country fraught with civil unrest. Yet, his response to this horrific action was not to flee the country and help from the outside, but to do what he could from within. He spoke of the need to focus on the happiness that was still occurring day to day in Rwanda. Being amazed at the possibility of children giggling under gunfire was just one of the personal anecdotes he shared. He communicated his happiness that he could be there and function correctly, and then share his experience and awareness of this issue with various American schools and people. A quote of his that really stuck with me and goes along with some of Socrates' debates, is that "the most powerful weapon we all have is a story."

Let me know if you guys think this parallel...isn't. Hahah. Thanks for listening/reading. Passion and happiness about a cause is definitely one means to a positive end, in my logic.

End of the Year Digital Dialogue Podcast

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Professor Long has mentioned that he would like to do a end of the year wrap up podcast discussing the major themes of the course on his official Digital Dialogue Podcast. Anyone who is interested in being part of the Podcast please comment below your interest, as we need to see how many students would like to participate. I have also included a crude and brief list of possible themes that have emerged from the semester. They are as follows:

1. Pursuit of the Good - The swan, effect on the soul, what is it?
2. The Nature of dialogue -- Agonistic (Protagorus, Gorgias) vs. Harmonic (Phaedrus)
3. Gorgias -- Rhetoric in pursuit of the Good, Callicles' leaky jars
4. Protagorus -- Can ethics be taught?
5. Do the ends justify the means?
6. The Soul -- The Chariot Allegory, punishment as a means of cleansing one's soul, its relationship with "the good"
7. Erotic Love and the role of the lover in Phadreus
8. Piety -- the role it plays in informing one's soul
9. Socrates' use of story and metaphor in Gorgias and Phaedrus.

If I missed anything, or if there is a subject in particular you wish to discuss I haven't mentioned, please comment below. There are also other themes that we have not discussed yet, and they will be added at a later date. The more input the better the podcast will be.The exact details on when the Podcast will take place are still a bit sketchy, but probably sometime in December.  

Trip to Starbuck's

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On a trip to Starbuck's for a midday pick-me-up, my roommmate Hallie and I found ourselves discussing some interesting points.

It's starting to be that time in the semester where our individual funds are pretty low and we are all awaiting the holiday season so we can get money, new clothes, or that special something we've wanted to buy but havent had the money to do so. While waiting in the drive-thru line I said, "You know, I think I'm gonna leave them a tip. Maybe I can find some good karma and maybe get some money in return somehow." Immediately, after I said that, I starting thinking. Does doing a good deed because I want some benefit, or hope for an ultimate outcome that favors myself, make it less good? Or does it make it not a good deed at all because I had selfish interests? I'll admit, when I left the dollar I wasn't thinking about whether or not it would benefit anyone other than myself. So, is a generous act only a good act if you're doing it to be a better person and to be kind to someone? When refreshing my memory of the concept of Karma, I turned to a website that summarized the concept of it (Karma). It said that karma is the idea that, "whatever you do intentionally to others, a similar thing will happen to yourself in the future." But I also remember from Protagorus when they were discussing the Good, it was said that a person can be good if they respect what's right, as well as moderation, etc. I question my train of thought as to whether I was thinking about what's right, and by wanting more money, I don't know if i was "respecting moderation." Any thoughts on this?

After this discussion, we started talking about memories. My roommate said that she wished she had a perfect memory, because then we could practically relive parts our lives whenever we wanted. By only having some memories, that means we essentially have forgotten parts of our lives. Having a perfect memory would have many benefits in terms of solving crimes, resolving disputes, studying for exams etc, but it may also have disadvantages in terms of witnessing something that one would like to forget. Then, things got a little more hypothetical. We started talking about how maybe one day there could be technology that could make you remember your whole life, and how maybe one day people could have their memory changed to a completely different one of their life up until that point. If the second idea could happen, though highly unlikely, how would people be affected? Do people need social contact in their lives or would having memories without actually living them be enough to shape a person? Personally, I know that I would prefer to live my own life and forget some of the less important memories and be molded in that sense rather than to have a perfect set of memories with no people around me to associate them with.

I know this is extremely farfetched, but I thought it was interesting and wanted to see what you all thought.

Technology's Effect on Human Intelligence: Why Google and Wikipedia Are Making Us Stupid

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A recent article on CNN and the latter half of the Digital Dialogue 16: Emerson and Self-Culture (about 47 minutes in) discuss the effect that technology has on a person's memory. The CNN article, entitled "Do diaries mess with your brain?" discusses our reliance on technology - from blackberries to Twitter--and whether or not "If we rely on technology for documenting, sorting and storing information -- creating digital diaries, or "lifestreaming" -- what will become of our minds?" The fear, according to the article is that, "...recording everything you do takes people out of the 'here and now', psychologists say. Constant documenting may make people less thoughtful about and engaged in what they're doing because they are focused on the recording process."

In the Digital Dialogue, Professor Long discusses with John Lysaker Plato's view on another advancement in technology called writing. Plato, even though he didn't like writing, still embraced the new technology and wrote, although he wrote about the problems with writing. An obvious example of this is in The Phaedrus. Socrates tells a story about Theuth (a divine being presenting technology) and the King of Egypt Thamus and their discussion on writing's impact on the mind:

It's said that Thamus presented many points both for and against each art, which would have a long speech to report, but when it came to letters, Theuth said, "This branch of learning, your majesty, will make Egyptians wiser and improve their memories, for I've discovered a magic potion for memory and wisdom. But Thamus replied, "Most artful Theuth, while one person is able to create the products of art, another is able to judge what harm or benefit they hold for those who intend to use them. Now you, father of letters, as a result of your affection for them, are stating the opposite of what their effect will be. If people learn them it will make their soul forgetful through lack of exercising their memory. They'll put trust in the external marks of writing instead of using their own internal capacity for remembering on their own. You've discovered a magic potion not for memory, but for reminding, and you offer your pupils apparent, not true, wisdom. After they have heard many things from you, but without instruction, they will seem to be very knowledgeable when they are for the most part ignorant, and they will be hard to get along with, since they will have only the appearance of wisdom instead of being really wise. (274e-275b)

It seems to me that that Theuth, Plato, and Socrates would not have been surprised by the CNN article. This leads to a very interesting question as to the role technology plays in our life, and whether or not it is making us intellectually lazy. The brain, like every part of the body, must be stimulated intellectually or it will decay. Technology seems to be a double edged sword: the availability of information allows us to study things we never would've been exposed to otherwise, while the convenience of that technology makes us reliant on it instead of our own mental capacities. Even while I write this blog entry, I am misspelling words which I know with a simple right click I can fix in a second. Instead of focusing on spelling it correctly the first time, I'm just going to get it as close as possible and allow Microsoft Word to fix it for me. This is one of many examples of technology allowing a person to be intellectually lazy. With Google and Wikipedia so readily available and brimming with useful information, why memorize anything anymore?

The question I present to you is this: Is technology messing with our brain?

Parmenides of Elea

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Our discussion in class brought up several interesting points which I felt very strongly about; the first of which branches off of the Charioteer Analogy that Socrates discusses with Phaedrus.  After I read over the passage for the second time, I came to remember reading a similar passage earlier in my career as a student, except it was not from a Socratic dialogue.  This different passage can be found in a poem written by an early Greek philosopher named Parmenides; after reading this, I found many distinct similarities between what we have currently been talking about, mainly, the Charioteer and his horses and, secondly, the being of the soul (which is found later in the poem, I will post that if you would like to read it).  I feel explaining this poem from Parmenides will be easier if I insert the first two paragraphs of his poem:

"The car that bears me carried me as far as ever my heart desired, when it had brought me and set me on the renowned way of the goddess, which leads the man who knows through all the towns.  On that way way I borne along; for on it did the wise steeds carry me, drawing my car, and maidens showed the way.  And the axle, glowing in the socket - for it was urged round by the whirling wheels at each end - gave forth a sound as of a pipe, when the daughters of the Sun, hasting to convey me into the light, threw back their veils from off their faces and left the abode of Night.
There are the gates of the ways of Night and Day, fitted above with a threshold of stone.  They themselves, high in the air, are closes by mighty doors, and Avenging Justice keeps the key that fit them.  Her did the maidens entreat the gentle words and cunningly persuade to unfasten without demur the bolted bars from the gates.  Then, when the doors were thrown back, they disclosed a wide opening, when their brazen posts fitted with rivets swung back one after the other.  Straight through them, on the broad way, did the maidens guide the horses and the car, and the goddess greeted me kindly, and took my right hand in hers, and spake to me these words:
Welcome, O youth, that comest to my abode on the car that bears thee tended by immortal charioteers!  It is no ill chance, but right and justice that has sent thee forth to travel on this way.  Far, indeed, does it lie from the beaten track of men!..."
(Early Greek Philosophy, John Burnett, Meridian Books.)

This poem continues, but I used these passages because I felt they are directly involved with our topic...

It was quite strange when I was reading this because so many things seem to come into my head instantly; first, how the opening line states, "the car the bears me carried me as far as ever my heart desired..."  This is beginning on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to Socrates; letting desire take over your chariot is not an option.  Secondly, when the youth come upon the doors of Avenging Justice, the "maidens entreat the gentle words and cunningly persuade to unfasten without demur the bolted bars".  Is this the rhetoric that Socrates has become entranced with defining; possibly our political society governed by leaders who are so passionate and fueled by their influential speeches?  So many ways that we can dissect this poem; almost as it was Phaedrus delivering another speech and watching what Socrates would say about it.  Is this passage from Parmenides an argument against Socrates analogy, more along the lines of Callicles - where we should fulfill our jugs without moderation?  Any ideas?
  

Modern Education's Obligation to Teaching the "Art"

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While resting under an apparently erotic plane-tree, Socrates and Phaedrus conversation turns to the nature of rhetoric, leading to this exchange of dialogue:

S: Well, tell me, if someone came to your associate...and said "I know how to apply certain sorts of things to people's bodies as to induce warmth or coolness if I want to, and if I choose I can make them vomit or make their bowels move, and a great many other things; and because I know these things I'm competent physician and can make a physician out of anyone else to whom I transit knowledge of these things." What do you think they'd say if they heard that?

P: What else but to ask whether he also knew to whom one should do these things and when, and to what extent?

S: What if he then said, "Not at all; rather, I expect the person who has learned from me to be able to work out what you refer to by himself"?

P: I think they'd say the fellow is mad, that after reading something in a book or chancing upon some medications he supposes himself to have become a good physician, when he knows nothing of the art. (268b-d)

Socrates and Phaedrus have discussed a very interesting point: distinguishing between learning and actually doing. Often times, it is two very different things, and what one has been taught may not necessarily be true in practice. One who believes themselves to be an expert carpenter after reading a book on carpentry is not only foolish by quite delusional to say the least.

This leads me to a digression into a critique of our system of education here at Penn State, Boston College and other universities across the United States. How much of an obligation do our schools have to us (the paying customers) to teach the "art" of our chosen majors? In other words, do our colleges give us the necessary tools to not only learn the information but to apply that information in a meaningful way? Is the curriculum only providing us with half of what we need to be successful? However, one could make an argument that we need to take ownership of our own education and seek out, independently, the art ourselves. For example, internships are offered for college credit. This leads to another interesting question of whether or not the art is something that can necessarily be taught, or if it is something that one must experience through trial and error in order to truly grasp.

So, what is a University's obligation to you, the student, to provide you with the art?

Digital Dialogue 16: Emerson and Self-Culture

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John Lysaker, Professor of Philosophy at Emory University, joins me for the first of three special SPEP 2009 editions of the Digital Dialogue recorded in Arlington, VA at the 48th Annual Meeting of the Society for Phenomenology and Existentialist Philosophy.

John's research focuses on philosophical psychology, aesthetics, social and political philosophy, and 19th and 20 century continental and American philosophy.

He has numerous publications in these areas, including two monographs, his first, You Must Change Your Life: Poetry and the Birth of Sense, was published in 2002 by Penn State University Press, and his second, Emerson and Self-Culture, was published in 2008 by Indiana University Press.

He is also the co-author of Schizophrenia and the Fate of the Self, published in 2008 by Oxford University Press, and the co-editor of  Emerson and Thoreau: Figures of Friendship forthcoming in January 2010 from the University of Indiana Press.

It is John's work on Emerson that brings him to the Digital Dialogue today.  In it, John enters into dialogue with the thinking of Ralph Waldo Emerson in order to perform self-culture, which he understands as an ongoing activity of self-realization in which one articulates and affirms the commitments and values that animate one's life.

Digital Dialogue 16 with John Lysaker: Emerson and Self-Culture
To subscribe to the Digital Dialogue via iTunesU, click here.

Weekly Round-Up #8

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Weekly Roundup #8.mp3

Taylor Ferber and John Koznecki discuss the different types of Madness and the nature of Madness itself.

Plato or Paul?

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Many medieval philosophers were concerned with formulating a synthesis between Aristotle and Christianity (Many of the proofs of Gods existence owe a lot to Aristotle). However, I noticed something while reading through Phaedrus. There are a lot of concepts/phrases that Plato puts into Socrates mouth that are eerily similar to phrases/concepts used by Paul of Tarsus, who singlehandedly wrote most of the Christian New Testament.

In terms of manuscript analysis, I remember Professor Long stating that we don't have any manuscripts of Plato's dialogues that date before ~1000 AD. But, we have Manuscripts of Paul's epistles that date back to ~200/300 AD. Since the Church was effectively the only institution in Europe that worried about preserving philosophical documents in the middle ages, I think it's possible that some monks might have peppered some of Paul's phrases into Plato's work in order for synthesis to go smoother.

The first similarity that caught my eye was this:

"For there is no light of justice or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls in the early copies of them: they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are few who, going to the images, behold them in the realities, and these only with difficulty." (Phaedrus 250b)

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

The concept is that the earthly word is inhibiting us from experiencing divine reality. Obviously there are great metaphysical differences between what Plato is suggesting, and what Paul writes about. But I'm still curious if there was any alterations in the platonic text.

Another example that caught my eye:

"And he who employs aright these memories is ever being initiated into perfect mysteries and along becomes perfect" (Phaedrus 249c)

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another" (2 Corinthians 3:18)

The idea here is that aligning yourself to the divine allows you to attain that which is impossible without aligning yourself to the divine.

The last obvious parallel I found wasn't between Plato and Paul, but between Plato and Luke:

"he has forgotten mother and brethren and companions, and he thinks nothing of the neglect and loss of his property; the rules and properties of life, on which he formerly prided himself, he now despise, and is ready to sleep like a servant, whenever he is allowed, as near as he can to his desired one, who is the objective of his worship, and the physician who can alone assuage the greatness of his pain" (Phaedrus 252a)

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26-27)

It might be easy to assume that the biblical authors were referencing Plato, but the lack of manuscripts makes such a position hard to defend. If the texts were developed in isolation (which is doubtful, considering the popular opinion that Paul was familiar with the Greek philosophers) then it's interesting how similar some of the concepts are.

Knowledge of Souls and Political Intuition

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Around 270d of the Phaedrus, Socrates begins describing the methodology of an art of rhetoric (or art of the soul) that parallels the Hippocratic art of the body.  A critical third point of this methodology is that the rhetorician will "classify the various kinds of speeches and kinds of soul, fitting each kind of one to a kind of the other, and he'll also classify the ways in which souls can be affected, giving explanations of every case and showing by what sort of speeches one soul will inevitably be persuaded and another not" (271b1-4).  Through this the rhetorician will find that "people of a certain sort are easily persuaded by speeches of a particular type to do certain sorts of things for a certain reason, while people of a different sort will not be persuaded for other reasons" (271d5-7).  Socrates says later that this requires "a great deal of effort, which the sensible person ought not to expend for the sake of speaking and acting before human beings, but so as to be able both to say what's pleasing to the gods and to do everything in a manner that pleases them to the best of one's ability" (273e5-9, my emphases). 

I am wondering how divinely pleasing this could be, that is, the comprehensive knowledge of souls, their types, and the types of speeches that will affect them.  This seems like a highly advanced form of political intuition that, for example, a contemporary politician might use to raise his ethos in the eyes of different demographics, or to smear his opponent, or to refute the claims of an opponent.  Knowledge of different souls and their types--different constituents (i.e. voters) and their types--along political, religious, social, and economic spectrums, just to name a few, would help one to sway most anybody in these situations.  Indeed, lack of relatability is a common cause for political disapproval.  For example, Obama was often interpreted as overly professorial in his speeches and seemed somewhat deficient in relating to older lower-class voters.  Perhaps he did not familiarize himself with their souls?  

My primary question is: What exactly is Socrates getting at?  I understand that he is after an art of rhetoric and hence a rhetorician that is knolwedgeable of the truth of the soul.  It seems as if motivation would be the key element to discuss here.  For example, is it inconceivable that a person who recognizes the truth of souls, an ideal truth perhaps, might use it selfishly or duplicitously?  Or is such knowledge transformative?  To rephrase the latter question: Would knowing the human soul change one's outlook and, returning to the inaugural post of the PHIL 200 blog, galvanize one to "care" for the souls to whom he/she speaks? The reason I highlighted the clauses in my last quotation above is that they demonstrate Socrates' suggestion of an ideal rhetorical knowledge, i.e. that a person should speak of that which pleases the gods.  Would this mean truth?  If so, would caring for souls mean speaking the truth?  Would knowledge of soul-types be necessary for arguing the truth with each type?

Sorry, I guess I got impatient and got us started.  Please let me know what you think, everyone.  

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Aristotle on the Nature of Truth   The Ethics of Ontology
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